Major and Minor Scales

[The Dude]

I figured you wouldn't know what the realm of "the truly human" would be. You have to be a sentient being yourself to know what that is, without tricky rhetoric and linguistic forensics to support an "argument". There is such a thing as "the spirit" of a law, poem, piece of music - trying to reduce it to terms which anatomize the use of language shows a sad removal from the human itself, I'm sorry to say. I can't see the point of continuing to argue with an automaton. And the patronizing, condescending tone The Dude can do without also.

And, yes, I'm in my "comfort zone" which includes Dante, Euripides, Shakespeare, Homer, Beethoven, Machaut, Leonin and Perotin, JS Bach, Theodore Adorno, Jean Paul Sartre etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitim.

[Peter]

And what is the "realm of the truly human"? And what is music? Any "traditional" composition can be reduced to mathematics. Does that, then, remove it from that realm? Music is all about possibilities and sounds. Without that there would be no music. The idea of creating music that is beyond the realm of human experience does not appeal to people who are confined within their comfort zones. Those who are willing and can escape those confines have a limitless approach to music and what it is.

Surely the purpose of music is to reflect that realm of human experience not to alienate itself from it? I may be old fashioned in my tastes but it is precisely this dehumanising element in modern art and life that repels me.

[The Dude]

"Old fashioned" in your tastes? This would include the greatest works of music in the history of Western civilization would it not?

I saw an interview recently with Simon Rattle and he talked in depth (on CNN, I think it was) about how the music of Berg, Schoenberg and Webern (and I'm paraphrasing here, because I don't have forensic recall and preternatural intelligence) had virtually reached the limits of the nexus between human beings and their musical expression and response, at least in the Western classical tradition.

I tend to listen to successful musicians, with a solid performing and academic background, rather than dry academics who would-be-if-they-could-be. Interesting, too, that many of the more recent "composers" have been mediocre performers themselves, or non-performers. I agree with a couple of earlier comments from other bloggers that there is a strong element of striking a pose, and pretension with much of this 'stuff' anyway.

In any case, the people have spoken with their feet.

[Ed C]

(and I'm paraphrasing here, because I don't have forensic recall and preternatural intelligence)

LOL! The Dude is crackin' me up here.
I'm gonna weigh in with some blather later, deep in Shostokovitch Str Qrtt 10 - cannot pause that one.....

[Preston]

And what is the "realm of the truly human"? And what is music? Any "traditional" composition can be reduced to mathematics. Does that, then, remove it from that realm? Music is all about possibilities and sounds. Without that there would be no music. The idea of creating music that is beyond the realm of human experience does not appeal to people who are confined within their comfort zones. Those who are willing and can escape those confines have a limitless approach to music and what it is.

Sorrano, personally, I believe most of the questions you have asked and statements you have made - are quite deep, thoughtful, and beautiful. I would like to reply more but I feel it would take a very long time, .

I figured you wouldn't know what the realm of "the truly human" would be. You have to be a sentient being yourself to know what that is...
I can't see the point of continuing to argue with an automaton.

Well I think when Sorrano said beyond human experience he was referring to a greater and broader sense of human experience. Such as, just an example - how far can the mind (or thought) go, how far can feeling go, how far can music go, etc. - in truth, far beyond anything human. I am certain that Sorrano is sentient and is not an automaton. That and your comment is just rude dude.

[Sorrano]

I figured you wouldn't know what the realm of "the truly human" would be. You have to be a sentient being yourself

And I suppose that you are? The human experience is not just about sitting in comfort zones; the human experience is about pushing the limits to find out all that there is. That is why we continue to explore all the possibilities that we can imagine in every realm. There is nothing wrong with existing within the confines of a comfort zone, but it is limiting to the experience of the individual to stay there.

Before you judge others, you should take a hard look at yourself and how you might be projecting your influence to others. Some of the posts that have been made in response to yours might give you a hint, if you are up to looking for it.

[The Dude]

I just want to quote Woody Allen:

"I'm not an intellectual, I just have a look".

[Peter]

Before we descend into another round of personal attacks can I please request we don't go down that road - it will result in the thread having to be closed and comments deleted.

[Peter]

And I suppose that you are? The human experience is not just about sitting in comfort zones; the human experience is about pushing the limits to find out all that there is. That is why we continue to explore all the possibilities that we can imagine in every realm. There is nothing wrong with existing within the confines of a comfort zone, but it is limiting to the experience of the individual to stay there.

Before you judge others, you should take a hard look at yourself and how you might be projecting your influence to others. Some of the posts that have been made in response to yours might give you a hint, if you are up to looking for it.

I'm not quite sure how you define 'comfort zones' - does this mean only sticking with what you like and value and therefore by implication going outside of this meaning to force yourself to listen to or look at, read what you do not? I think we all have 'comfort zones' in that we know what we like and do not. I agree we should always be willing to try new things but not to blindly accept them without a critical eye or ear just because it is something apparently 'different'.

[The Dude]

Before we descend into another round of personal attacks can I please request we don't go down that road - it will result in the thread having to be closed and comments deleted.

The Dude is perfectly ready to accept responsibility for his part and apologizes for any offense caused. (Apologizing is about accepting personal responsibility, after all.)

[Peter]

Sorrano's post is thought provoking I think in several areas - firstly about comfort zones and about definitions of music. The World health organisation has just published a study on the negative effects of noise pollution on human health, yet the avant garde have since Luigi Russolo's 'The art of noise' gone down this very road. Russolo regarded traditional melodic music as confining and envisioned noise music as its future replacement - personally I do not regard noise as music but I realise that to some this is a provocative statement!

[Sorrano]

To The Dude: It was not my intention to provoke hostilities with you; my apologies if you were offended.

To Peter: I will get back with your questions; I had a partial answer, but an untimely pair of keystrokes wiped it. It's always well to make sure that focus is set on the space in which one is typing and not on something else when enter is pressed.

[Sorrano]

With the definition of music itself at the very roots of this topic it can be somewhat uncomfortable for people who are firmly rooted in certain concepts. I do not post that as a negative, but rather as what it is. I will have more on this later. Thank you for your patience.

[The Dude]

Sorrano's post is thought provoking I think in several areas - firstly about comfort zones and about definitions of music. The World health organisation has just published a study on the negative effects of noise pollution on human health, yet the avant garde have since Luigi Russolo's 'The art of noise' gone down this very road. Russolo regarded traditional melodic music as confining and envisioned noise music as its future replacement - personally I do not regard noise as music but I realise that to some this is a provocative statement!

Bravo! Bravo!! You have said it all. I'm very sensitive about this issue as I detest seeing music denuded of its beauty and magnificent properties and possibilities. I think when you have to start examining the definition of music you are already in real trouble, conceptually speaking.

[Sorrano]

Bravo! Bravo!! You have said it all. I'm very sensitive about this issue as I detest seeing music denuded of its beauty and magnificent properties and possibilities. I think when you have to start examining the definition of music you are already in real trouble, conceptually speaking.

You did not suppose that I was rejecting what has been in music? You refer to
"denuding" music of its beauty but this is not my intent. Nor is it my intent to limit music to what exists currently; that would be a terrible mistake. Their are inherent difficulties in attempting to define music; perhaps this is what you are referring to?

There is nothing wrong with exploring music, scales, etc. that are outside the limits of our culture. Music itself has evolved dramatically over the past several thousand years. Imagine someone from ancient Greece attempting to listen to and understand Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. Even contemporaries of Beethoven had difficulty with that work. I rather suspect that whether you or I like it that music will continue to evolve and change, though I would hope that that which has been will be kept.