Freedom in Musical Form

[Preston]

It is a hard thing to pin down the abstract.

I agree and will comment on your post and your earlier post in a while. It is now cocktail time, .

[Quijote]

I agree and will comment on your post and your earlier post in a while. It is now cocktail time, .

Lucky fellow! Not for me, I'm off to bed...

[The Dude]

There are also the passacaglias and chaconnes that we need to deal with in discussing variations, for example, the final movement of Brahm's 4th Symphony and the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th Symphony (to name a couple of more popular ones). Do you have similar experiences with these? Do they smack of theme and variation, or do you feel a different form?

I'll try and avoid a pseudo-intellectual, prolix response. Those devices in wider works such as the ones you quote by Brahms and Beethoven are not the Variation forms I'm talking about. B and B do not "smack" of anything at all.

[Quijote]

[...]B and B do not "smack" of anything at all.

Oh yes they do, Dude. Assuming we understand the use of "smack" in this context, I find that B & B smack of early to late 19th century middle European musical practice.
(Not too much prolix this time, I hope? Do tell.)

[Sorrano]

In terms of their variation forms, how do they stand in comparison with the more standard Sonata-allegro? Or do they feel more rhapsodic? They are not that much different from the final movement of the Eroica as far as form goes.

[Ed C]

I always think of Sonata form, ternary form, etc.. as a kind of "narrative plot" - like a typical Hitchcock movie which begins innocently enough, then a MacGuffin appears, then a chase, then the climax and happy ending (I just described North by Northwest of course).

Variation form is more like a soap opera - it never really needs to end, IMHO. Theoretically you could start in the middle and get just as much satisfaction as starting from the original theme. Are there any variations where the original theme is stated at the very end? Or perhaps all "last" variations are ACTUALLY THE MAIN THEME?

[The Dude]

Bingo, Ed!!

[Sorrano]

It's an interesting concept. I suppose that when I was younger I leaned more in that direction, but there is too much music out there that is foreign to that sort of thinking. There are so many different styles and forms that I find it necessary to take each on its own terms and try to understand what the composer intended; of course, from other discussions, we can only understand the music from our own set of experiences and not necessarily comprehend the intent of the composer. I am reminded of a time when listening to the Bruckner 3rd Symphony when a friend entered the room, and upon listening, began to "read" a program into the symphony, describing various aspects of struggle, etc.

[Peter]

Are there any variations where the original theme is stated at the very end?

Beethoven does this in Op.109.

[Ed C]

Beethoven does this in Op.109.

Oh - I should have been more clear, Peter - I meant are there any pieces where the original theme is not stated at all until the very end (not as a reprise of an initial theme statement)? I suppose it's a contradiction in terms since whatever comes first by definition must be the main theme?

But thanks for giving me the pleasure of going thru that 2nd movement just now.

[Chris]

Oh - I should have been more clear, Peter - I meant are there any pieces where the original theme is not stated at all until the very end (not as a reprise of an initial theme statement)? I suppose it's a contradiction in terms since whatever comes first by definition must be the main theme?

I'm not aware of anything, but that's actually kind of a neat idea. The listener is confronted with ornamentations and augmentations and diminutions and key changes all kinds of things, and in the end he gets to see how close he was to figuring out the original theme.

[Peter]

Oh - I should have been more clear, Peter - I meant are there any pieces where the original theme is not stated at all until the very end (not as a reprise of an initial theme statement)? I suppose it's a contradiction in terms since whatever comes first by definition must be the main theme?

But thanks for giving me the pleasure of going thru that 2nd movement just now.

It's the 3rd movement in Op.109, were you thinking of Op.111?
Sibelius (though not variation form) comes closest I think in technique to what you're getting at.

[Michael]

Are there any variations where the original theme is stated at the very end? Or perhaps all "last" variations are ACTUALLY THE MAIN THEME?

Do you mean that the main theme does not appear at all until the end? If so, Beethoven does something approaching this in the Eroica variations (and the last movement of the symphony). He doesn't open with the main theme - just the bass - and he writes several variations on this before introducing the main theme. In the symphony this opening has a very humorous effect (yes - humour in the mighty Eroica!) and to first-time listeners it must have been very puzzling - with mysterious silences and sudden loud chords.

And Elgar's "Enigma Variations" go beyond this, in that the theme is not stated at all. This has caused much conjecture down the years - one of the candidates being the famous slow movement of B's Pathetique sonata.

[Ed C]

It's the 3rd movement in Op.109, were you thinking of Op.111?

I meant 3rd, on my ipod I have M1 and M2 as 1 track hence the confusion...

Michael - Eroica - that's a good one to bring up! There's no way that first bass line could be a complete theme statement...cool.

Speaking of the humor in that 4th movement, another blogger (KW) recently wrote that the Eroica was "flawed" because the 4th M was too light as an ending. One man's flaw is another's perfect antidote. Nice fellow tho.

[Michael]

Speaking of the humor in that 4th movement, another blogger (KW) recently wrote that the Eroica was "flawed" because the 4th M was too light as an ending. One man's flaw is another's perfect antidote. Nice fellow tho.

By that reasoning, most, if not all, of Haydn's symphonies could be consigned to the waste bin. The concept of the end-weighted symphony didn't really begin until Beethoven's Fifth. I think the idea up to then was that the audience would lose their concentration after half an hour or so, and so the most difficult movement of a symphony or quartet would be the first one. Mozart really upped the ante with his fugal finale to the Jupiter symphony - but you could still call that movement "light".
I wonder if your blogger has listened right to the end of the Eroica finale where the shades of the funeral march threaten to engulf the music until Beethoven blows it all away triumphantly.