Poor composer musical judgements

[Peter]

The adversity that many composers felt for each others work is extraordinary - I don't understand how such great musical minds were so blind to the quality of others. Of course the Verdi-Wagner-Brahms hostility is well known but reading the David Brown biography of Tchaikovsky has reminded me of just how poor and vitriolic such judgements could be - Tchaikovsky regarded Bach as great but a bore, Handel as 4th rate, Brahms as an untalented S***, Wagner as dreadful, the late Beethoven quartets as abominable. In Tchaikovsky's case it can't be put down to jealousy as he was full of praise for other lesser contemporaries such as Rubinstein, Delibes, Gounod - so this is down purely to a lack of musical appreciation which is extraordinary in a great musical mind - any explanations?

[gprengel]

Tchaikovsky regarded Bach as great but a bore, Handel as 4th rate, Brahms as an untalented S***, Wagner as dreadful, the late Beethoven quartets as abominable. In Tchaikovsky's case it can't be put down to jealousy as he was full of praise for other lesser contemporaries such as Rubinstein, Delibes, Gounod - so this is down purely to a lack of musical appreciation which is extraordinary in a great musical mind - any explanations?

That Tchaikovsky couldn't stand Wagner I can understand. Of his works I also can love only very few pieces (mostly the overtures,some chorusses in Parsifal and also his youth symphony) . Brahms he considered as "cold" which at least regarding most of his chamber music and songs I also can somewhat understand, but that he "hated" the late Beethoven ("only brilliancy, nothing more"), though admiring the middle period Beethoven is really hard to understand...
But it should be said he that Tchaikovsky was altogether in love with Mozart ("the culminating point of all beauty in the sphere of music. He alone can make me weep and tremble...") which made him write the beautiful Mozartiana and also Mendelssohn.

[Peter]

Yes I can also understand the antipathy towards Wagner - he is a composer who you either love or loathe and has always been a controversial figure. More puzzling is Tchaikovsky's ranking of Raff and Rubinstein as vastly superior to Brahms and his complete dismissal of Handel. How can Beethoven regard Handel as the greatest composer ever but Tchaikovsky regard him as 4th rate?

[Sorrano]

Even on this forum we all have differing personal views of the great composers. For example, I could hardly live without the music of Wagner but gprengel can hardly stand him. Personal taste will account for most of this. For many years I recognized Bach as one of the greats, but like Tchaikovsky, thought his music was terribly boring. That was until I heard the music performed by someone with a lot of enthusiasm for the work and since then, I've been enthralled with it. I don't find it unusual or strange in the least bit that the great composers had differing views toward their peers, both past and present.

[Peter]

Even on this forum we all have differing personal views of the great composers. For example, I could hardly live without the music of Wagner but gprengel can hardly stand him. Personal taste will account for most of this. For many years I recognized Bach as one of the greats, but like Tchaikovsky, thought his music was terribly boring. That was until I heard the music performed by someone with a lot of enthusiasm for the work and since then, I've been enthralled with it. I don't find it unusual or strange in the least bit that the great composers had differing views toward their peers, both past and present.

Yes, but we're not talking about personal likes and dislikes of us ordinary mortals, but about a professional musician who taught composition (all be it reluctantly) and was also a great composer - he did come to a more balanced view on Brahms later on, recognising his mastery whilst not liking the music which is fair enough, but it is still inexplicable that he could have considered Handel 4th rate. I'm not sure that the performance quality is an issue here either as Tchaikovsky was a very capable pianist and would normally come to know works this way.

[Chris]

Yes, but we're not talking about personal likes and dislikes of us ordinary mortals, but about a professional musician who taught composition (all be it reluctantly) and was also a great composer - he did come to a more balanced view on Brahms later on, recognising his mastery whilst not liking the music which is fair enough, but it is still inexplicable that he could have considered Handel 4th rate. I'm not sure that the performance quality is an issue here either as Tchaikovsky was a very capable pianist and would normally come to know works this way.

Aren't you a professional musician too? Doesn't your opinion count for something? Just because you are at the top of your field doesn't mean you are always right. Einstein was certainly wrong in some of his judgments of the theories of other physicists. Whether it be science or something more subjective like art, everyone is human and makes mistakes, is subject to various prejudices, and has weaknesses and blind spots.

[jamesofedinburgh]

Professional jealousy is an important factor as well as the factional nature of artistic movements.

At a 'deeper' level, perhaps composers recognise in the music they despise aspects of themselves that they are not comfortable with. So - and I am only speculating here and wish to offend no one - perhaps Tchaikovsky did not care for Wager because of the obvious expression of deep passions (which most would agree are erotic) in much of his music, whereas Tchaikovsky was terribly frustrated in this area due to the need to hide/deny his homosexuality.

Of course Wagner is a special case in that the 'meaning' of the music is fairly clear when it is linked to a text. (Yes, I know, there is irony when he may use one or other leitmotif hidden in the texture to undercut the main line.)

Who would despise Handel? Here you have to wonder if it's the baggage of so many poor performances due to uninformed performance practice. Handel is easily wrecked by pompous performances that don't allow the music both to dance and to breathe. In his case, I think the early music movement has really done a lot of good.

[Peter]

Professional jealousy is an important factor as well as the factional nature of artistic movements.

At a 'deeper' level, perhaps composers recognise in the music they despise aspects of themselves that they are not comfortable with. So - and I am only speculating here and wish to offend no one - perhaps Tchaikovsky did not care for Wager because of the obvious expression of deep passions (which most would agree are erotic) in much of his music, whereas Tchaikovsky was terribly frustrated in this area due to the need to hide/deny his homosexuality.

Of course Wagner is a special case in that the 'meaning' of the music is fairly clear when it is linked to a text. (Yes, I know, there is irony when he may use one or other leitmotif hidden in the texture to undercut the main line.)

Who would despise Handel? Here you have to wonder if it's the baggage of so many poor performances due to uninformed performance practice. Handel is easily wrecked by pompous performances that don't allow the music both to dance and to breathe. In his case, I think the early music movement has really done a lot of good.

I doubt Tchaikovsky heard many performances of Handel, let alone poor ones! He simply must have had limited knowledge of this composer as did many at the time - as Handel was a naturalised Englishman it could also be down to his dislike of all things English (except Shakespeare and Dickens!).
I'm sure if he'd been familiar with an opera such as Giulio Cesare with it's wonderful orchestration and beautiful arias he would have had a different opinion.

[jamesofedinburgh]

I doubt Tchaikovsky heard many performances of Handel, let alone poor ones! He simply must have had limited knowledge of this composer as did many at the time - as Handel was a naturalised Englishman it could also be down to his dislike of all things English (except Shakespeare and Dickens!).
I'm sure if he'd been familiar with an opera such as Giulio Cesare with it's wonderful orchestration and beautiful arias he would have had a different opinion.

Not sure about his not hearing performances - Tchaikovsky was at a music conservatory for many years and really all they do there is perform music. This leads to a wide knowledge of the repertory. The Russian musical tradition included an openness to the West and indeed a great support for it - the late quartets were commissioned by Prince Galitzin in Petersburg and of course Rasumovsky was a Russian count - so it would be surprising if there were not also some exposure to Handel's music.

[Peter]

Not sure about his not hearing performances - Tchaikovsky was at a music conservatory for many years and really all they do there is perform music. This leads to a wide knowledge of the repertory. The Russian musical tradition included an openness to the West and indeed a great support for it - the late quartets were commissioned by Prince Galitzin in Petersburg and of course Rasumovsky was a Russian count - so it would be surprising if there were not also some exposure to Handel's music.

Well I'm not sure about it either - just how fashionable was Handel in Russia in the 2nd half of the 19th century? It would be interesting to know how many performances of Handel operas there were at the Mariinsky for example - personally I'd be surprised if there were any at all. Even here in the UK they had virtually vanished from the repertoire until the mid 20th century.

[jamesofedinburgh]

There you are - a PhD thesis for somebody - performances of Handel in 19th c. Russia!

[Peter]

There you are - a PhD thesis for somebody - performances of Handel in 19th c. Russia!

It would be an easy topic I think - a blank page should sufice for a first!

[Marek Krukowski]

I like Brahms but I suppose I know why his music was so uninteresting for Tchaikovsky. Tchaikovsky composed music in which every voice - even in accompaniament - could be heard as independent melody of some beauty. Brahms worked in completely different style. Some voices in his compositions works only in the complete score and taken separately are just unlistenable. I suppose Tchaikovsky heard music in absolutely linear way so he couldn't appreciate technique of german composer.

[Peter]

I like Brahms but I suppose I know why his music was so uninteresting for Tchaikovsky. Tchaikovsky composed music in which every voice - even in accompaniament - could be heard as independent melody of some beauty. Brahms worked in completely different style. Some voices in his compositions works only in the complete score and taken separately are just unlistenable. I suppose Tchaikovsky heard music in absolutely linear way so he couldn't appreciate technique of german composer.

Interesting thoughts Marek - Tchaikovsky in later consideration of Brahms recognised his mastery but felt that he didn't sufficiently develop his melodic ideas. Delius was another composer with inexplicable taste - in his case an almost vitriolic loathing of our dear Beethoven!

[Bonn1827]

So, Delius was blind in more ways than one!