Autobiography in great art

[Bonn1827]

The comments from JoE, Peter and Sorrano were so interesting (in the "What are you listening to now" thread) that I thought it deserved a special place of its own - since it has the potential to be a huge discussion point.

I agree with all the above posters' various comments and this probably is where the complexity of the issue resides. Hindsight can show us the 'autobiographical' tendencies in Tchaikovsky because we have music + personal narrative + theatrical background to inform us. What might we say, for example, if we did not have that additional information?

JoE talks about Marvell and Donne - two great English poets and personal faves - and their muses. I do think 'autobiography' and 'muse' can be mutually exclusive concepts. 'Muse" can be quite an abstract concept. But I don't think we can call this 'autobiography'. Shakespeare's Sonnets are reportedly (and it's all so speculative) about a male!! I think it instructive to ask the question: 'Whom do we believe: the tale or the teller?"

(JoE, you talked about the tendency toward public displays of grief - I call this 'ostentatious mourning' and I think it a consequence of the mass media and representations, in popular culture, of what some might consider "real". Churchill was able to use the media very effectively in order to subdue mass impulses of fear and despair and to instill courage, so it can work both ways.)

Culture and values are intrinsic to any work of art - they have to be - but I don't think this implies autobiographical inclination per se.

[Bonn1827]

I think you are suggesting that the conceits of metaphysical poetry - courtly love and that tradition, which elevates desire and longing into abject suffering and introspection - can be somewhat 'autobiographical'? I'm not sure if I agree entirely with this, as the poets of that time were adopting time-honoured cultural and literary conventions. Those poets who represented the "high water mark" in English literature extrapolated these with especial wit and genius, much like Mozart when he used the conventions of the classical symphony/sonata form to explore his own musical ideas. I think that, of all art forms, poetry is the most autobiographical because of its very nature, but I don't get a particular sense with the Metaphysical Poets, for example, that the poetry necessarily reflects a life "narrative" - one that we can look back on and say, "yes, in that poem he shows that he was manic depressive" and so forth.

Keats certainly was autobiographical, particularly in the Odes where he explored temporality and the transcience of existence - he was genius enough to be able to incorporate ideas about art itself into poetry (just as one example). For example, he refers to the Grecian Urn and its static frieze:

"When old age shall this generation waste;
Though shalt remain a friend to man
To whom thou sayest:
Beauty is Truth; Truth Beauty;
That is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know".

What IS autobiographical about this particular Ode is its reference to time and change and immortality.

(BTW, ever contemplated just how CADENTIAL poetry is, and how like poetry music is also?)

Donne used the courtly love conceits because he was a womanizer, and also because he wanted to put his phenomenal intellectual skills on display, through argument, literary allusion and figurative language!! He wrote religious poems and they are "autobiographical" in the sense that he was a priest wrestling with the big issues. Beyond that the work must speak for itself. Whom do you believe? The tale or the teller? A couple of valid questions.

[Peter]

To bring it back to music rather than literature I think what is being missed is the distinction between the Classical and Romantic. I personally do not see Beethoven as a composer who displays his personal feelings and emotions in the way that Tchaikovsky does. The letter scene from Eugene Onegin actually influenced Tchaikovsky in his personal life and for him art and reality merged into a disastrous marriage - something he regarded as fate which was reflected in the 4th symphony. Where in Beethoven can we find such correlation between his music and personal circumstances? Beethoven was not a happy man yet to me his music is always optimistic, there is always light at the end of the tunnel but Tchaikovsky does have a tendency to wallow in despair!

[jamesofedinburgh]

The sad thing is it probably was fate, in that during his lifetime, it was completely unacceptable to be homosexual and furthermore there were some who felt the 'condition' was 'curable'. Hence marriage as a curative essay which of course was bound to fail.

I have detected a shrill tone at times in Tchaikovsky. I also think he is often best in a fantasy world - The Nutcracker Suite, for example. It is interesting then to compare this to Beethoven Opus 130 the 4 interior movements (especially the Andante con moto) where there is also a sense of fantasy.

[Bonn1827]

Point taken about the catalyst which may have compelled Marvell to pen his fine poem on the 'coy mistress'. Love that irony!! I particularly love the humour and conceits in Donne's "The Flea". As the modern cliche once went: "a big issue over a bit of tissue"!!

I actually think the link between music and words is more compelling and powerful than the act of setting text to music, since music has its prosody closely related to written text, and Solomon actually discusses this in one chapter of his "Late Beethoven: Music, Thought and Imagination". (And the link between Bach's music and rhetoric has also been the subject of scrutiny.) I always taught students about the inherent musicality of poetry, as well as extraordinary narrative prose - no matter how strained or post-modern the text. I used to have them tap out the rhythms and scan the meter after reading it, and we used to discuss what kind of 'music' arose from the written word.

Regarding Tchaikovsky - I have always had the utmost compassion and sympathy for his 'predicament' and this has lead to a certain lenience about his excesses. But I think his ballet, "The Nutcracker" absolutely the best thing he ever wrote - particularly the little Arabian dance with its deep register, exotic tone and Eastern fragrances. Simply inspired, brilliant and, uncharacteristically, understated.

[Peter]

Regarding Tchaikovsky - I have always had the utmost compassion and sympathy for his 'predicament' and this has lead to a certain lenience about his excesses. But I think his ballet, "The Nutcracker" absolutely the best thing he ever wrote - particularly the little Arabian dance with its deep register, exotic tone and Eastern fragrances. Simply inspired, brilliant and, uncharacteristically, understated.

Yes of course I sympathise with him, that's not the issue I thought, rather the autobiographical nature of music and I think Tchaikovsky is one of the most revealing composers of all in this regard. I can't agree the Nutcracker is the best thing he ever wrote - 4th & 6th Symphonies, 'Manfred' , 'Eugene Onegin' and The Sleeping Beauty are his best works.

[Bonn1827]

The autobiographical nature of the music is readily obvious and I'm suggesting this is why I tend to overlook some of the bathos which is sometimes present: his 'back story', if you will, is right there for the world to hear.

We'll have to disagree about which are his better works, I guess. I enjoy 'Manfred' etc., but I'd suggest that "The Nutcracker" is the more inventive of all the theatre works, and varied - perhaps it's that 'fantasy world' comment you made earlier which is at play here too. I listened to it again before bedtime and was moved by the 2nd act - music for the celeste, just as one example, in such a unique and beautiful setting! "The Sleeping Beauty" has beautiful tunes but is in no way the equal of "The Nutcracker", IMHO. Anyway, Simon Rattle agrees with me in his liner notes for his latest recording with the BPO!!! "The Nutcracker is simply one of the great miracles in music...the orchestration is remarkable and revolutionary". (2010)

[Sorrano]

PBS presented a concert during the New Year holiday that featured the second act of Nutcracker. There is some very good writing here, and tuning into the performance after it had started gave me a different perspective, as I did not know what the music was (immediately). Whether it is autobiographical or not, or contains those elements is one thing. The music is simply wonderful and the orchestration superb.

Personally, I do not find Tchaikovsky's music overly extreme any more than Beethoven was in his time. The music is fulfilling to me, much in the same way I respond to Beethoven's music.

[Bonn1827]

I was thinking about the whole notion of autobiography in music this weekend during a long car trip. I was listening (on my I-Pod) to Rachmaninov's Symphony in E Minor and it struck me how similar this is to Tchaikovsky - how 'autobiographical', if you like, in that it reflects the national character of Russia and the inherent sadness of their history. So, instead of looking at personal autobiography, we may view nationalism as a variant of this - in the same way that we tend to think of Chopin as depicting a very particular narrative about Poland.

Strip away any notions we have about Tchaikovsky and his personal narrative, and what we have in his music is the same as that found in, amongst others, Rachmaninov - a deep sense of the profound sadness of Russia, its culture and its history. This is what gives Russian music its own particular 'fingerprint' and idiom (as well as Eastern influences) IMO.

I suspect this applies to many composers from divergent nations, but nationalism in music isn't always so 'autobiographical' as it seems to be with the Russians. Nationalism can simply mean incorporating folk elements - as is the case with Bartok and Kodaly, Liszt and Dvorak. But this isn't necessarily 'autobiographical' in the sense that I feel some Russian composers are.

[jamesofedinburgh]

Yes, it is partly the type of melodic shapes they have in common which is Russian. But this is only a partial reason, because Bartok is very hungarian but does not feel so (at least to me) and Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn certainly have links to German-Austrian folk song and yet transcend this. So there is another factor at work in addition to relation to a specific ethnic musical atmosphere, and which makes Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Mussorgsky (the greatest of the lot in my opinion), Scriabin (before he lost it) and so forth distinctly russian.

Very interesting comment!

[Peter]

Yes, it is partly the type of melodic shapes they have in common which is Russian. But this is only a partial reason, because Bartok is very hungarian but does not feel so (at least to me) and Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn certainly have links to German-Austrian folk song and yet transcend this. So there is another factor at work in addition to relation to a specific ethnic musical atmosphere, and which makes Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Mussorgsky (the greatest of the lot in my opinion), Scriabin (before he lost it) and so forth distinctly russian.

Very interesting comment!

Yet Bartok made such a study of Hungarian, Romanian and Bulgarian folk music, incorporating much into his music - I think we are too distant from our own folk traditions now, let alone those of other countries to be able to fully appreciate this. Odd also that Tchaikovsky regarded Mussorgsky as the weakest composer out of the mighty handful, in fact he hated his music, which suggests that personal tastes did transcend national barriers - perhaps it is because Mussorgsky was TOO Russian that Tchaikovsky (who was always the more western looking and influenced) felt uneasy - in fact he wasn't comfortable with the 19th century either!