the Moonlight Sonata and the sustain pedal...

[Preston]

I know that Beethoven made precise instructions for the sustain pedal to be held down throughout the 1st movement of the 14th Piano Sonata. Though, common practice today does not follow that rule because of the modern piano when compare with the forte piano. I still believe that it should be held down, because it is no doubt a powerful piece, that and I believe Beethoven would have liked the pianos of today.

Some say that you cannot hear it correctly or that is sounds blurry. Though, is that not the point of this piece? Is it not meant to flow continuously with each note slowly getting softer while another note comes in, etc.

Also, it is a powerful piece, yet a gentle piece at the same time, so would the modern piano not be best for it?

I am not voting on the poll yet, because I want to hear what you all have to say. Though, I imagine I will vote for the wholly sustained.

[Chris]

I've made it work, so I'm going to say yes.

[Preston]

Ok, I have done a test with midi and software samples (yes, I brought out the Bosendorfer). I rendered a midi file with software of the 1st mov. of the Moonlight. The first file with sustain pedal all the way down and the second with it not.

The mp3 that is sustained got up to around 105 voices (each time a note is hit it is a voice until it is dampered or fades out) for a fair portion.

Here we can tell the difference between the two:

sustain pedal down: http://www.box.net/shared/ah2thul4az

some sustain pedal: http://www.box.net/shared/d5gqgdrndr

Enjoy!

[Peter]

You can't keep the pedal all the way down on the modern piano - compromise is necessary and it works well if the pedal is depressed about a 3rd or with subtle half-pedalling.

[Sorrano]

I have to say no. I'm not so sure that there was so much a saturated use of the pedal in Beethoven's time as there is now. The pedal should be used only as an effect on the piece and not as the medium. (Although I do confess to overusing it myself when I play it.)

[Preston]

You can't keep the pedal all the way down on the modern piano...

Peter, why? The voice limit was around maximum 105 sounds and it provided a great ambience - which I think is suiting for the piece.

I have to say no. I'm not so sure that there was so much a saturated use of the pedal in Beethoven's time as there is now. The pedal should be used only as an effect on the piece and not as the medium. (Although I do confess to overusing it myself when I play it.)

Yes the piano forte was different but was Beethoven not pushing the limits of the piano? Could he not have known that a greater piano with more depth would be more suitable for this sonata?

Didn't Beethoven want it to be the medium with this piece? Wasn't that the whole point of the 1st mov. - sustain pedal all the way down? To my understanding Beethoven indicated that he wanted the sustain pedal to be pressed all the way down throughout the entire piece.

Also, the 14th sonata is different than a lot of his sonatas in the early period. The only one I can think of with such power and emotion and depth is The Pathetique?

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Anyway just some questions I have, .

[Sorrano]

Peter, why? The voice limit was around maximum 105 sounds and it provided a great ambience - which I think is suiting for the piece.

Yes the piano forte was different but was Beethoven not pushing the limits of the piano? Could he not have known that a greater piano with more depth would be more suitable for this sonata?

Didn't Beethoven want it to be the medium with this piece? Wasn't that the whole point of the 1st mov. - sustain pedal all the way down? To my understanding Beethoven indicated that he wanted the sustain pedal to be pressed all the way down throughout the entire piece.

Also, the 14th sonata is different than a lot of his sonatas in the early period. The only one I can think of with such power and emotion and depth is The Pathetique?

-----------------
Anyway just some questions I have, .

There are others, too, during the "early" period that you should listen to. (For example, Op. 7, no. 3 movement 2 is a great one to listen to).

The pedal has to be used intelligently, otherwise the result is a muddied effect. Some of the critical nuances in the work would be essentially obliterated with a continued pedal sustain. If I were to play that on my piano with the pedal pressed the piece would not sound very good after a couple of measures.

[Peter]

Peter, why? The voice limit was around maximum 105 sounds and it provided a great ambience - which I think is suiting for the piece.

Yes the piano forte was different but was Beethoven not pushing the limits of the piano? Could he not have known that a greater piano with more depth would be more suitable for this sonata?

Didn't Beethoven want it to be the medium with this piece? Wasn't that the whole point of the 1st mov. - sustain pedal all the way down? To my understanding Beethoven indicated that he wanted the sustain pedal to be pressed all the way down throughout the entire piece.

Also, the 14th sonata is different than a lot of his sonatas in the early period. The only one I can think of with such power and emotion and depth is The Pathetique?

-----------------
Anyway just some questions I have, .

The reason is simple - played on the fortepiano the pedal effect Beethoven asks for creates the right atmosphere without a complete blur (which is not what he intended). You have to understand that when playing music on the modern piano written for the fortepiano or earlier instruments you are in effect transcribing for a different instrument with different capabilties and sonorities than those imagined by the composer. The task is to try as faithfully as possible to recreate that sound world and simply holding the sustain right down throughout is not a recreation but a distortion which is why I suggest that a compromise is necessary. I'm not suggesting Beethoven's direction should be ignored (as many do) but simply transcribed for the modern piano - if the pedal is not depressed fully but at around a 3rd then you can get closer to the effect produced by the fortepiano in this movement.

As to 'depth' - nothing in the early sonatas achieves this quite like the slow movement of Op.10/3. Use of the pedal in anycase has nothing to do with depth and power, but colour and atmosphere.

[Chris]

Peter, why? The voice limit was around maximum 105 sounds and it provided a great ambience - which I think is suiting for the piece.

You can't expect a midi experiment to produce results similar to real life. Because there will be great variation even in real life. You have to take into account what kind of piano, where you are, how full the room is. Because you will get reverb and echo from these things too. Peter is right, pressing the pedal all the way down is not going to be pretty, nor is it the effect Beethoven expected from his direction. But as I said, you can still keep the pedal (partly) down through the whole piece and it will work.

[Preston]

Well, thanks for the advice. Those are the things I was wondering.

Though, an interesting point to raise, I think, is:

Did the composer write music specifically for the instrument or did the composer take what was in his mind and try to express it the best he could through the instruments of the day?

Such as:
1. Did the composer hear the instrument first and then say I will work on a piece strictly for this instrument.

Or

2. Did the composer hear the music in his head first and then say the music I hear in my head works best with this instrument.


I imagine, it varies for different composers.

Though, I think with Beethoven his goal was that he heard the most different of sounds and then tried to express them the best he could through the instruments at hand?

[Peter]

Well, thanks for the advice. Those are the things I was wondering.

Though, an interesting point to raise, I think, is:

Did the composer write music specifically for the instrument or did the composer take what was in his mind and try to express it the best he could through the instruments of the day?

Such as:
1. Did the composer hear the instrument first and then say I will work on a piece strictly for this instrument.

Or

2. Did the composer hear the music in his head first and then say the music I hear in my head works best with this instrument.


I imagine, it varies for different composers.

Though, I think with Beethoven his goal was that he heard the most different of sounds and then tried to express them the best he could through the instruments at hand?

Very interesting question Preston. I think that in writing for a specific instrument the composer obviously has its sound and capabilities in mind, however we have the issue of arrangements which were very common. One major example is Beethoven's own transcription of his Violin concerto for piano, though we have to realise these arrangements were usually done for commercial reasons.

It is also interesting that as the piano evolved during Beethoven's lifetime, he didn't revise his earlier sonatas to accomodate the changes. One example of this is the D minor sonata Op.31/2 which in it's first movement has a passage in the recapitulation that he was forced to adapt because of the smaller keyboard available at the time - he could have revised it later but chose not to as his solution had lead to some interesting dissonances that he rightly preferred to the plain octaves (used in the exposition) that he probably would have written had more notes been available.

[Ed C]

This is a pretty cool experiment. I actually like both versions. As you and others have voiced, the fortepiano didn't sustain nearly as much as modern pianos do now, and B probably intended "constant pedalling" with some varied expression - nonetheless I'm all for different interpretations (which is why I like Heifetz as well as Kopatchinskaja). The "full" pedal version is actually not as muddy as I expected it would be and the sympathetic variations are an interesting added element. Not B's intention I'd guess but still interesting to hear as an alternative interpretation. As you know Im all for "provocative interpretations" Also - if you sat in the back row of a huge cathedral and heard the Moonlight - that might produce a similar effect even with no pedalling....

Peter - interesting fact about Op. 31/2 - I find "limitations" to be a great avenue towards finding creativity - I even believe Wellington's Victory to be a completely worthwhile piece despite it's "sell-out" status.......

[Quijote]

I don't see the problem, to be honest. Beethoven clearly marked the pedal to be applied throughout the movement in question (given the "decay" factor on the fortepianos of his day), and clearly it would be a nonsense to apply strictly that marking on a modern piano. Ergo, one has to make compromises in terms of pedalling in order to create the effect that Beethoven intended. Peter, Chris and Sorrano have already dealt with this.
Having said that, the sympathetic resonances (not "variations", I think) that Ed C refers to do indeed create interesting sounds, but one should not forget that there is a clear melody to be brought out. We must also not forget that the epithet "Moonlight" was not given by LvB, and I think the term induces us (lesser performers) to imagine some sort of flux-like limpid light that blurs the line. The line is clear.

[Quijote]

I mean, "moonlight" can be bright and clear, depending on weather conditions, and not necessarily refracted in some sort of muddy pool. For a later example of sharp, clear "moonlight" you need look no further than Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire.
Sorry, I abstain from the vote.

[Ed C]

the sympathetic resonances (not "variations", I think) that Ed C refers to

Yep, that what I get for typing before my second mug of coffee. Resonance is what I meant, yes.