Least favourite Beethoven works

[Quijote]

May I return the the "Triple" (1st movement)? Come on, what a dull opening melody (in the 'cellos, no least)! As Peter has alluded to elsewhere, sometimes the "material" has little to offer, and I think this is a case in point. That said (sorry Bonn, for this personal linguistic "tick" of mine), Haydn could turn pigs' ears to silk, but this motif in the Triple is just too thin to make a decent gruel. It's a total flop of a motif. Even the opening motif of Op. 18/N°1 has more musicality, more "potential", more drive.

[Quijote]

I've got it! The phrase I was reaching for is : the motif lacks virility. Yes, it has no "balls". And Beethoven is a most virile composer. I am convinced : Beethoven got Ries, Czerny or his housekeeper Frau Schnapps to write the outer movements (on a commission basis).

[Rutradelusasa]

I've got it! The phrase I was reaching for is : the motif lacks virility. Yes, it has no "balls". And Beethoven is a most virile composer. I am convinced : Beethoven got Ries, Czerny or his housekeeper Frau Schnapps to write the outer movements (on a commission basis).

Must have been the housekeeper... Listening to Ries and Czerny one can't say they are lacking in the 'balls' department.

[Sorrano]

May I return the the "Triple" (1st movement)? Come on, what a dull opening melody (in the 'cellos, no least)! As Peter has alluded to elsewhere, sometimes the "material" has little to offer, and I think this is a case in point. That said (sorry Bonn, for this personal linguistic "tick" of mine), Haydn could turn pigs' ears to silk, but this motif in the Triple is just too thin to make a decent gruel. It's a total flop of a motif. Even the opening motif of Op. 18/N°1 has more musicality, more "potential", more drive.

As to your subsequent post, virility is a better choice. What any material has to offer has more to do with the ingenuity of the composer. Maybe Beethoven was bored when he composed this.

[Michael]

I've got it! The phrase I was reaching for is : the motif lacks virility. Yes, it has no "balls". And Beethoven is a most virile composer. I am convinced : Beethoven got Ries, Czerny or his housekeeper Frau Schnapps to write the outer movements (on a commission basis).

I quite like the "Triple Concerto". So, the opening theme is apparently lacking in virility - you could say the same about countless other Beethoven themes. The composer is asking you to wait. Like the opening of the Violin Concerto the emphasis is more on rhythm than melody. That "feeble" motif comes back in spades in the recapitulation.
Consider the opening of the sublime second movement of the first Razumovsky quartet - a one-note "melody" for solo cello which caused the player at the first rehearsal to throw his score on the floor in disgust. He didn't wait.
(You mentioned "balls", Philip. Beethoven wrote a large number of waltzes and minuets which were played at many balls.)

[Quijote]

I quite like the "Triple Concerto". So, the opening theme is apparently lacking in virility - you could say the same about countless other Beethoven themes. The composer is asking you to wait. Like the opening of the Violin Concerto the emphasis is more on rhythm than melody. That "feeble" motif comes back in spades in the recapitulation.
Consider the opening of the sublime second movement of the first Razumovsky quartet - a one-note "melody" for solo cello which caused the player at the first rehearsal to throw his score on the floor in disgust. He didn't wait.
(You mentioned "balls", Philip. Beethoven wrote a large number of waltzes and minuets which were played at many balls.)

Oh, I can wait Michael. The "potent" examples you cite are just that : potent, full of pregnant possibilities. The "main theme" of the Triple (1st movement) is so flaccid that not even an overdose of viagra can help ...
I maintain he subcontracted his "Master of the Chamber Pot" to write the outer movements.

[Ed C]

Out of the top of my head, some of his smaller piano pieces really don't click with me, namely the Fantasia G minor/B major, there are others, but this one is always skipped when I go through a book of 'other piano pieces' by him.

LOL - for everyone's least fav, it's someone else's top fav - a friend recently asked me what LvB to listen to when getting into his work and one of the 3 that I listed was Opus 77 . This friend is not a classical fan - he's more into "noise rock" so that's part of my reasoning. The other one was the Grosse Fugue...

[Michael]

Oh, I can wait Michael. The "potent" examples you cite are just that : potent, full of pregnant possibilities. The "main theme" of the Triple (1st movement) is so flaccid that not even an overdose of viagra can help ...
I maintain he subcontracted his "Master of the Chamber Pot" to write the outer movements.

Okay, I get it. You don't like the opening theme. But maybe Beethoven wanted it to be "flaccid". The Triple Concerto is a very mellow work, I think, and perhaps he decided on a gentle opening. A concerto or a symphony doesn't always have to start with the dark urgency of, say, the C minor piano concerto - or it doesn't have to blow your socks off like the Emperor.
An opening theme can be pregnant without being viagra con brio.

[Peter]

Oh, I can wait Michael. The "potent" examples you cite are just that : potent, full of pregnant possibilities. The "main theme" of the Triple (1st movement) is so flaccid that not even an overdose of viagra can help ...
I maintain he subcontracted his "Master of the Chamber Pot" to write the outer movements.

Interesting Philip in that in previous debates about greatness or criteria for judging merits of a composer/ composition you have usually debunked the standard arguments, yet a theme can be 'flaccid'? How? Perhaps had he started with an introduction of 4'33 silence the work could have been improved?
As you can see, as you are in your new guise I'm becoming more pedantic!!

[Quijote]

Interesting Philip in that in previous debates about greatness or criteria for judging merits of a composer/ composition you have usually debunked the standard arguments, yet a theme can be 'flaccid'? How? Perhaps had he started with an introduction of 4'33 silence the work could have been improved? [...]

Yes, this is true. How standards have slipped. Too much "Beckham", not enough rigour. How can a theme be flaccid? When I play it on my 'cello I have an irresistible urge to fall asleep, and my bow goes all floppy ...
I blame Ries or Frau Schnapps for this curious event. Do excuse me, I have to get back to my latest reading extravaganza, "El Pescador Cornudo".

[Michael]

When I play it on my 'cello I have an irresistible urge to fall asleep, and my bow goes all floppy ...

Q: What's the difference between a cello and a coffin?
A: The coffin has the dead person on the inside.

[Quijote]

Q: What's the difference between a cello and a coffin?
A: The coffin has the dead person on the inside.

Very funny. Suddenly, I feel a sketch coming on ...

[Peter]

Yes, this is true. How standards have slipped. Too much "Beckham", not enough rigour. How can a theme be flaccid? When I play it on my 'cello I have an irresistible urge to fall asleep, and my bow goes all floppy ...
I blame Ries or Frau Schnapps for this curious event. Do excuse me, I have to get back to my latest reading extravaganza, "El Pescador Cornudo".

Ah but that's too easy a cop out! How can we say that Beethoven was in any way better a composer than frau Schnapps or Ries? I'm serious here because in previous debates you have stated that we can't. Following the logic of this argument we can no more claim the triple concerto theme as 'flacid' than we can the 'theme' of 4'33 - or am I misunderstanding your arguments?

[Sorrano]

There is a difference between general judgments and personal opinion. We may opine the a melody is flaccid, but to make a judgmental decision for everyone on the forum that work A is not as good as work B is another matter.

[Peter]

There is a difference between general judgments and personal opinion. We may opine the a melody is flaccid, but to make a judgmental decision for everyone on the forum that work A is not as good as work B is another matter.

I don't know, I think you can. Surely we can say for example that the 4th piano concerto is superior to the Triple concerto or that the 2nd symphony is not the equal of the 3rd or 9th?