Period instruments

[Jin]

I know there are many recordings on period pianos, but what portion are actually played on 1817 Broadwood & Sons pianofortes, like the one Beethoven owned?

[Chris]

Beats me, but I'm sure Rod will be in here any minute to tell you that Grafs are the best suited to playing Beethoven...

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Chris:
Beats me, but I'm sure Rod will be in here any minute to tell you that Grafs are the best suited to playing Beethoven...

That's right my friend! *L*

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freedom for all- Ludwig Van Beethoven

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Beats me, but I'm sure Rod will be in here any minute to tell you that Grafs are the best suited to playing Beethoven...

Rod is away for a few weeks. Beethoven though at first pleased with the new Broadwood presented to him, was not so enthusiastic about it later. The make that impressed him most was that of the Stein/Streicher family.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Jin:
I know there are many recordings on period pianos, but what portion are actually played on 1817 Broadwood & Sons pianofortes, like the one Beethoven owned?

I'm away but not out of touch!

There are two recordings I am aware of using Beethoven's Broadwood itself. The oldest, and now very rare, I think is played by Andras Schiff, but I'm not sure. I haven't heard this recording. The other is by Melvyn Tan on the EMI label, which you still may be able to find or order if you are lucky. I have this disk, and there is a track from it on this site! Go to the home page and check the 'period mp3s' link. I have a few other recordings using other Broadwoods but I can tell you that the vast majority of recordings are played using Viennese pianos for a simple reason - the vast majority of fortepiano players believe they are better suited to Beethoven's music than the English models. I agree with them based on what I have heard.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Jin]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have a few other recordings using other Broadwoods but I can tell you that the vast majority of recordings are played using Viennese pianos for a simple reason - the vast majority of fortepiano players believe they are better suited to Beethoven's music than the English models. I agree with them based on what I have heard.

Is there any documentation of which type of instrument Beethoven intended his pieces to be played on?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Jin:
Is there any documentation of which type of instrument Beethoven intended his pieces to be played on?

None - no pre 20th century composer ever specified a particular make of instrument that their music MUST be performed on.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
None - no pre 20th century composer ever specified a particular make of instrument that their music MUST be performed on.

Well, B wrote most of his piano music to be played by himself, thus one would assume he wrote it for his own instruments!! Thus the earlier pieces work well on the 5 octave Walter or Schantz B is known to have possessed (amongst many other brands), whilst Streicher and Graf instruments were his later preferences for works requiring 6-6.5 octave pianos. From op101 onwards, B's piano sonatas require 6.5 octaves, beyond that of his Broadwood but common with Viennese models - thus by logic B must have been composing even the late works for the Viennese school of Piano, which was still the favoured type of piano in Vienna long after B's death.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Jin:
Is there any documentation of which type of instrument Beethoven intended his pieces to be played on?

Just played a cd from my collection that reminded of this posting and proves my point more than any other, namely a recording of op16 on period instruments (by the Academy of Ancient Music Chamber Ensemble and Robert Levin on the fp, Decca). This piece is usually slandered by the critics, especially in relation to Mozart's comparable effort (K452) upon which op16 is losely modelled, but this recording reveals the true dynamism and colour of the composition, especially from the piano (a Walter copy). The balance between the instruments is also improved with the winds being more dominant, and the sound as a whole being more homogenous thanks to the lack of vibrato from the winds. This CD also includes K452, and M's effort is placed as the opener and B's is the finale (with B's op17 as the 'entre act') which is unusual from my experience but wholely justifiable as B's work totally eclipses M's when played as it should be.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-29-2001).]

[NickB]

I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I have no period B recordings aside from the Gardiner Missa.

I am aware of the recommended cd's from this site, but am curious about any opinions of the Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music symphony cycle. Also the Zinman cycle reviewed at http://www.sobran.com/columns/010315.shtml sounds interesting--and inexpensive--anyone familiar with it?
(http://shopping.yahoo.com/shop?d=c&id=320793)

The Lubin/Academy concerto cycle on a Viennese school fortepiano sounds promising (but I'm having trouble shopping for it online!); what about it compared to the Levin/Romantique (Gardiner) cycle (which looks fairly expensive)? My favorite concerti recordings are those by Ashkenazy/Chicago/Solti.

Once again, your recommendations are most appreciated and will likely be followed up on.

[Rod]

Originally posted by NickB:
I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I have no period B recordings aside from the Gardiner Missa.

I am aware of the recommended cd's from this site, but am curious about any opinions of the Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music symphony cycle. Also the Zinman cycle

This Hogwood cycle is ok, but there are few surprises other than the super-fast adagio in the 9th, which actually works very well. The best boxed set for me is by the Hanover band which is dirt cheap and includes the Missa and Overtures. There are other individual disk recordings that are also very good however. The Zinman set is not to my taste, I don't even consider symphony recordings not performed on period instruments.

Originally posted by NickB:

The Lubin/Academy concerto cycle on a Viennese school fortepiano sounds promising (but I'm having trouble shopping for it online!); what about it compared to the Levin/Romantique (Gardiner) cycle (which looks fairly expensive)? My favorite concerti recordings are those by Ashkenazy/Chicago/Solti.

Once again, your recommendations are most appreciated and will likely be followed up on.

I have the Lubin set. No's 3 and 5 are very good here, nos 1 and 2 are a touch lame and 4 suffers from a crap piano sound. So I can't really recommend this set, nor in fact Levin's from what I have heard. The set by Immerseel and Tafelmusic is cheap here in London and includes the violin concerto. Immerseel is one of my favoured pianists but Tafelmusic sound a bit rough on these recordings. For a first class 4th (with a pretty good 'triple') look for a CD on DHM with Paul Badura-Skoda on the fp and the Collegium Aurium (or however it is spelt!). The Graf is fantastic in B-S's hands. I think my last set on modern instruments was by Kempff, but here too I no-longer even consider new modern instrument interpretations, regardless of their quality.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-30-2001).]

[Rod]

If anyone is interested in these old pianos there's an excellent page below showing all the main brands with lots of nice close-up pics...
http://www.ashburnham.org/Frederickc...collection.htm

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Nice site Rod, I'll add it to the links page on this site. Everyone should check out the links page occasionally as I'm always adding new sites and you're bound to find something of interest.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Very interesting, Rod. I enjoyed reading the history and evolution of those pianos and also looking at the pictures!!

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Very interesting, Rod. I enjoyed reading the history and evolution of those pianos and also looking at the pictures!!

Joy

Thank you Joy and Peter. From the close-ups, as far as i can see the older Viennese pianos (Streicher, Bosendorfer from the 1840's to 1870's) still have the Viennese action, certainly the '40s models. With this action the keyboard is situated more centrally in the casing, whereas with the English actioned models (eg Erard, Broadwood) the keys are set more towards the floor of the casing. Also other features inside the piano are different for each type.

Given even these late models sound absolutely nothing at all like their modern Steinway counterpart (I've heard a working 1850's Streicher in Vienna in a museum opposite the Eroica House), there are simply no grounds whatsoever for the popular but slightly ludicrous idea that B's ideal piano would somehow have been something like the modern Steinway.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-01-2001).]