syncopation everywhere... !

[djmomo17]

Excellent example this Eroica first movement

Thanks! I can't believe I did that...and am impressed you got it so quick!

[Preston]

But you are incorrigible...

You are correct about that. Truthfully, it is quite a problem. Though, enough about that.

[Quijote]

Thanks! I can't believe I did that...and am impressed you got it so quick!

Now Djomo, you should talk to me, as I use the Eroica as the basis of many of my courses (musicological, historical, harmonic "practice", analysis ...). Do ask, I shall tell ...

[Bonn1827]

My understanding (from a Leonard Bernstein show) is that syncopation is when accents fall on other beats then the ones expected (such as "1"). In that case one of my favorite syncopations in B's music is the 6 orchestral 'hits' of C7 before the end of the exposition repeat. It feels like it should be |BAM-BAM-BAM|BAM-BAM-BAM| but instead it's |ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|. There are also many other places where he does similar 2 over 3 syncopation such as the phrases before the brass comes in in the exposition.

Isn't this a hemiola, Djmomo?

[Quijote]

Isn't this a hemiola, Djmomo?

I know the answer to Bonn 1827's question. It is a Greek dish that one must eat whilst tapping one's foot on the off-beat as one chews

[djmomo17]

I know the answer to Bonn 1827's question. Do you, Djomo? Do you care to know?

Hemiola is one example of syncopation. But Pllip feel free to elaborate and/or refute.

[Sorrano]

My understanding (from a Leonard Bernstein show) is that syncopation is when accents fall on other beats then the ones expected (such as "1"). In that case one of my favorite syncopations in B's music is the 6 orchestral 'hits' of C7 before the end of the exposition repeat. It feels like it should be |BAM-BAM-BAM|BAM-BAM-BAM| but instead it's |ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|. There are also many other places where he does similar 2 over 3 syncopation such as the phrases before the brass comes in in the exposition.

So what's Obama got to do with syncopation?

[Quijote]

Hemiola is one example of syncopation. But Pllip feel free to elaborate and/or refute.

I neither elaborate, confirm, or deny. I must speak to my lawyer first.

[Quijote]

Or rather, I CAN neiTHER CONfirm or DEny. I must speak TO my lawYER first (he says, in a someWHAT synCOpated way).

[Black Dog]

I haven't formally counted the instances of syncopation in Beethoven's music, but I've always been stricken by the opposite phenomenon - that the downbeat is far, far stronger in Beethoven (and most classical) than in modern music. The aforementioned passages in the 5th seem to be an exception, as well as the trio of the Moonlight Sonata (whose syncopation I take to be a joke), and I'm sure there are others.

The downbeat is one thing I find refreshing (and at times exhilirating) about Classical music. Older modern music like ragtime and early rock & roll used syncopation to deliberate effect, but nowadays hitting the snare drum on 2 & 4 seems more a matter of mindless imitation than design. I often hear rock songs that are decidedly unsyncopated aside from the drumbeat.

Of course, these aren't the perceptions of a 19th Century listener.

[Quijote]

I haven't formally counted the instances of syncopation in Beethoven's music, but I've always been stricken by the opposite phenomenon - that the downbeat is far, far stronger in Beethoven (and most classical) than in modern music. The aforementioned passages in the 5th seem to be an exception, as well as the trio of the Moonlight Sonata (whose syncopation I take to be a joke), and I'm sure there are others.

The downbeat is one thing I find refreshing (and at times exhilirating) about Classical music. Older modern music like ragtime and early rock & roll used syncopation to deliberate effect, but nowadays hitting the snare drum on 2 & 4 seems more a matter of mindless imitation than design. I often hear rock songs that are decidedly unsyncopated aside from the drumbeat.

Of course, these aren't the perceptions of a 19th Century listener.

Hello Black Dog (Woof !). I have never had any intention of counting (formally or otherwise) the instances of syncopation in B's music, for I am not mad enough to do so, though I know perhaps two on this forum who are (I shall not mention their names). I thoroughly enjoyed your comments about hitting the beat on 2 & 4 (these days) to be most apt.

[Preston]

...for I am not mad enough to do so...

I, believe, you may be close. Perhaps, you are so mad that you do not realize you are mad?

[Quijote]

I, believe, you may be close. Perhaps, you are so mad that you do not realize you are mad?

I think that is quite possible, Preston. I was being tongue in cheek, mind you.

[Bonn1827]

I, believe, you may be close. Perhaps, you are so mad that you do not realize you are mad?

These sentences really demonstrate the terrifying power of the maltreatment of punctuation, don't you think? In barricading the words "believe" and "perhaps" behind a comma the writer has demonstrated a subliminal confusion yet, at the same time (!), he accuses another of "madness"!! This juxtaposition is, as the White Rabbit would lament, very curious indeed. Is this particular example not, also, a kind of linguistic syncopation?

When one maltreats punctuation it, like, say, a "mad" relation, can become very unpredictable!! One should be very wary of such provocations: the consequences can be surprising!

[Quijote]

These sentences really demonstrate the terrifying power of the maltreatment of punctuation, don't you think? In barricading the words "believe" and "perhaps" behind a comma the writer has demonstrated a subliminal confusion yet, at the same time (!), he accuses another of "madness"!! This juxtaposition is, as the White Rabbit would lament, very curious indeed. Is this particular example not, also, a kind of linguistic syncopation?

When one maltreats punctuation it, like, say, a "mad" relation, can become very unpredictable!! One should be very wary of such provocations: the consequences can be surprising!

Well, quite, Bonn. I think I agree : misuse of punctuation does indeed lead to a sort of linguistic syncopation. It impacts on the "metre" and the "meaning" (example : the brown bear; eats, shoots and leaves.). On the other hand, B's use of syncopation was intentional, and the musical "message" never clearer.