syncopation everywhere... !

[Preston]

I am very proud of myself- the reason being is because I am starting to hear the great amounts of syncopation in Beethoven's music. It seems to my ears now, that a lot of his music is syncopated? It started with the 2nd mov. of the 5th symphony, then, onto the 3rd mov. It was a completely different sound world than what I have been hearing.

I kept thinking to myself, great music must be syncopated and not tight like somekind of catchy tune. So, I was listening to a composer on the Garritan forum whose music I have respected for his fundamental understanding of how music should be written (at least some music), and his approach to music- and, then I thought to myself Beethoven must have understood these fundamental properties of writing music. So, then I put on the 2nd and 3rd movements to the 5th and, VIOLA- I heard the syncopation!

At least it sounds like syncopation? Am I correct in saying syncopation?

[Preston]

Actually, now that I think of it, it was a completely different world of sound and understanding towards Beethoven's music. It was different than how I am used to hearing his music. Hearing his music as I did made much more sense to me. It sounded more like, I imagine, music should. Hopefully, my ears will keep this up and eventually I will have a better understanding towards his music and music theory.

[Megan]

I am very proud of myself- the reason being is because I am starting to hear the great amounts of syncopation in Beethoven's music. It seems to my ears now, that a lot of his music is syncopated? It started with the 2nd mov. of the 5th symphony, then, onto the 3rd mov. It was a completely different sound world than what I have been hearing.

I kept thinking to myself, great music must be syncopated and not tight like somekind of catchy tune. So, I was listening to a composer on the Garritan forum whose music I have respected for his fundamental understanding of how music should be written (at least some music), and his approach to music- and, then I thought to myself Beethoven must have understood these fundamental properties of writing music. So, then I put on the 2nd and 3rd movements to the 5th and, VIOLA- I heard the syncopation!

At least it sounds like syncopation? Am I correct in saying syncopation?

, VIOLA- I heard the syncopation!


Viola, is a character in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night ,or a musical instrument.

[Preston]

I was just using it as a figure of speech. Though, it is also a packaged pasta, .

[Roehre]

Preston, if you like to hear a brilliant example of syncopation: the opening of Robert Schumann's third symphony, the "rhenish"

[Preston]

Thanks Roehre. I said syncopation, though, now I wonder if that is what it is, because, I know too little of syncopation. Everything just made more sense musically, as I imagine it should. For instance, instead of the music being like one big ball of sound, there was space in the music, I could easily distinguish between the runs on the strings and the sustain notes, etc. I don't know if it was necessarily off-beat though it does sound like it.

I guess it is really complex issues, that the great composers and great theorists get really good at!

I think it is that, in some sense, I was approaching classical as though it was pop-music, etc.- which cannot really be done, because they are two completely different ways of writing (not saying that all classical is written the same) and therefore, you cannot take the same approach to them when listening. So, instead of getting one big ball of sound, as in pop, I got many sounds doing many different things, etc. and it was great!

I was simply approaching classical the wrong way, though, I do not consider it my fault- I blame it on my ears and mind, !

[djmomo17]

My understanding (from a Leonard Bernstein show) is that syncopation is when accents fall on other beats then the ones expected (such as "1"). In that case one of my favorite syncopations in B's music is the 6 orchestral 'hits' of C7 before the end of the exposition repeat. It feels like it should be |BAM-BAM-BAM|BAM-BAM-BAM| but instead it's |ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|. There are also many other places where he does similar 2 over 3 syncopation such as the phrases before the brass comes in in the exposition.

[Roehre]

My understanding (from a Leonard Bernstein show) is that syncopation is when accents fall on other beats then the ones expected (such as "1"). In that case one of my favorite syncopations in B's music is the 6 orchestral 'hits' of C7 before the end of the exposition repeat. It feels like it should be |BAM-BAM-BAM|BAM-BAM-BAM| but instead it's |ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|. There are also many other places where he does similar 2 over 3 syncopation such as the phrases before the brass comes in in the exposition.

Excellent example this Eroica first movement

[Quijote]

, VIOLA- I heard the syncopation!

Viola, is a character in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night ,or a musical instrument.

Yes. He means : Voilà!
Viola is also the name of a fairly famous video artist. Curiously (to extend [rather, reduce] the etymology), the word "viol" in French signifies "rape". I'm sure there is no connection between violas, syncopation and rape, other than that (à la limite) syncopation tends to "rape" the regular "pulse" of a given metre. Who can say?

[Quijote]

Excellent example this Eroica first movement

Indeed, Welshman. The entire movement is replete with off-beat patterns, as is the third movement, though on the supra-structural level, if you see (hear) what I mean. But this is a feature (fingerprint, if you will) of Beethoven throughout most of his oeuvre. If Preston really wants to hear syncopation at its most primitive (and easily discernible) level, I can suggest almost any work by Steve Reich. If he (Preston) wishes to "hear" syncopation at its most absurd level, I would suggest Ferneyhough, as a starter.

[Quijote]

My understanding (from a Leonard Bernstein show) is that syncopation is when accents fall on other beats then the ones expected (such as "1"). In that case one of my favorite syncopations in B's music is the 6 orchestral 'hits' of C7 before the end of the exposition repeat. It feels like it should be |BAM-BAM-BAM|BAM-BAM-BAM| but instead it's |ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|ah-BAM-ah|BAM-ah-BAM|. There are also many other places where he does similar 2 over 3 syncopation such as the phrases before the brass comes in in the exposition.

Bam-bam-bam-BAM? or BAM-bam-bam-bam? Or Du-wu-WOO-wu, or DU-wu-woo-wu? Who can say, and is it at all clear what the hell you are trying to say?
Hmm, let me try in a compound 7/4 + 7/4 + 7/4 + 2/4 time : (read in a regular crotchet = 180 metre, where the "accent" is on the capital letters, with "It" being the anacrusis, or upbeat) It SEEMS to me THAT one has NOT underSTOOD that SYNcopATION is simPLY OFFbeat that's ALL!

To help Preston (if not others) : read the above phrase in a regular meter, accenting the capital letters. This should give you an idea of what "syncopation" is. If not, stop listening to Beethoven. Voilà, I believe I have summarised the concept in one posting. I trust Peter is green with envy.

[Preston]

Yes. He means : Voilà!
Viola is also the name of a fairly famous video artist. Curiously (to extend [rather, reduce] the etymology), the word "viol" in French signifies "rape". I'm sure there is no connection between violas, syncopation and rape, other than that (à la limite) syncopation tends to "rape" the regular "pulse" of a given metre. Who can say?

Yes, VOILA, is what I was trying to say. Thank you for clarifying Philip.

[Quijote]

I am the clarifier. I am the god Ghee (clarified butter). Clarification is my raison d'être. Voilà, c'est tout que je voulais dire...

[Preston]

Now, don't go and get cocky about your clarification skills, .

[Quijote]

Now, don't go and get cocky about your clarification skills, .

I really shouldn't be talking to you, Preston. But you are incorrigible, and I cannot turn down a challenge. I do think you should take up Bonn 1827's idea of reading certain key texts and produce an essay for her correction. Beware Utopia, Preston !