The Great Fugue

[djmomo17]

Just listening to the Grosse Fugue again and every time it gets to the coda, it amazes me how unorthodox it is the way B restates the 3 or 4 fugue themes, with dramatic rests in between. It almost seems like a string quartet reminiscing about it's recent past. I can't think of any piece before or after that by any composer which does such a thing in such a near-Joycean manner. Can someone give me an example?

(FYI - I made my own guitar version of the Grosse Fugue using Midi just to see what it would sound like. Since I play guitar it makes a somewhat different impression on me. I like it...but your mileage may vary)

[djmomo17]

This U-Tube sample should be seen by all high school music students - now!!

Especially the ones who think Beethoven is a dog.

[Michael]

Just listening to the Grosse Fugue again and every time it gets to the coda, it amazes me how unorthodox it is the way B restates the 3 or 4 fugue themes, with dramatic rests in between. It almost seems like a string quartet reminiscing about it's recent past. I can't think of any piece before or after that by any composer which does such a thing in such a near-Joycean manner. Can someone give me an example?

Beethoven himself had already done something similar in the finale of the Ninth Symphony, where he plays and rejects the main themes from each of the preceding movements.

(I like your guitar/midi version!)

[gprengel]

I definitely prefer to listen to the op. 130 with the monumental Great Fuge. The tender slow middle parts are just heavenly! But I also must admit that I have my problems with the first Allegro by listening to a string quartett sounding very harsh. I somehow prefer to listen to Beethoven's piano version in op. 134. It is just more smooth. What do you think?
I listen to op. 134 as a continuation of the piano sonatas op. 106 and 111.

http://mp3.xalo.vn/nghebaihat/314661...Beethoven.html

Or what about the orchestra version from Furtwängler?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSs2QSfuHRk

[Bonn1827]

The orchestral version sounds rather leaden and clunky, IMO. It doesn't work for me - I crave the clarity of the four stringed instruments. This Furtwangler version reminds me of that dreadful Henry Wood orchestration of the Bach Prelude (I think it was). Preposterous!!

[Michael]

Beethoven's own piano transcription of the Grosse Fuge is quite interesting and there are some slight deviations from the original. Don't ask me exactly where but I'm sure someone with a score would spot them.

[Bonn1827]

[QUOTE=Michael;47798]Click on this for a fascinating talk by Rob Kapilow:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c-R544gF8s

This lecture by Kapilow is excellent!! (The fact that he was SURPRISED that most of the medical students in the audience would have also been musicians is unbelievable! There is a huge nexus between Medicine and Music).

This lecture made me realize that Beethoven, in the Heiliger Dankgesang, was probably using quasi-Renaissance musical models: Lydian mode, and with the "hymn" melody he seems to be partially applying the ancient practice of Cantus Firmus. In this convention a (usually Gregorian) chant melody or pre-existing secular melody provides the bass line so that the original chant becomes almost undetectable because it is slowed down (often to as small as one note per measure). Above the "chant" would typically be a polyphonic musical structure. Beethoven uses his hymn as a "Cantus Firmus" type structure, with the other 3 string parts weaving motifs from this melody in an almost, at times, fugal counterpoint. So the hymn as "Cantus Firmus" forms the basis of the "Illness" (Molto Adagio) section of the Heiliger Dankegesang, IMO.

Beethoven obviously had a working knowledge of the theory of music going back to at least the early Renaissance period and was able to adapt this to classical models in a highly original, musical and intellectual way. (He wasn't the only composer to do this either). Isn't this just ANOTHER reason why we love him?!

Is should be noted that Cantus Firmus as a musical device is usually used in reference to later music, beginning with the 14th Century. But pre-existent melodies are present in the majority of early polyphonic compositions.

For more reading on this fascinating topic see: Manfred F. Bukofzer, Studies in Medieval and Renaissance Music (NY, Norton, 1950).

[Ed C]

Thought I'd mention in this thread that I did a structural rundown of the Grosse Fugue last week - I found that you could easily analyze it in several different ways. In my interpretation I tried to give it a hybrid symphonic/sonata macro-form - whatever that means.

In the accompanying video I was tempted to use political figures as backgrounds for each fugue section, but I figured that would be too distracting....and used colors instead.

http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/2010/...-analysis.html

[Michael]

Phew! That took some work, I'll bet. Well done. And I like the Takacs - now I know what to look for this Christmas.

[jamesofedinburgh]

[QUOTE=Roehre;47781]Personally I prefer the grosse fuge as finale.


As Beethoven learnt of English editions of the Hammerklavier (the sonata cut into digestible parts of two mvts, one such edition even called "Fantasia and Fugue") he was furious, as it destroyed the concept of the work.

Not entirely accurate. Beethoven wrote to Ries (his student) regarding the first performance in London. In this famous letter he told him to add the octave pedestal of the third (A to C#) which now commences the Adagio Sostenuto. He also suggested that Ries could present the sonata in a variety of formats, including deleting the first two movements and simply playing the adagio and the finale. Perhaps his words came back to haunt him when - it would seem - some publishers took him at his word.

At some level I don't think he cared much about how the public received his work, while at another level he cared deeply. In terms of future acceptance of his work, he had little worry, and I think his short-term concerns were mostly driven by financial worry.

[jamesofedinburgh]

[QUOTE=Bonn1827;47883]

Click on this for a fascinating talk by Rob Kapilow:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c-R544gF8s

This lecture by Kapilow is excellent!! (The fact that he was SURPRISED that most of the medical students in the audience would have also been musicians is unbelievable! There is a huge nexus between Medicine and Music).

This lecture made me realize that Beethoven, in the Heiliger Dankgesang, was probably using quasi-Renaissance musical models: Lydian mode, and with the "hymn" melody he seems to be partially applying the ancient practice of Cantus Firmus. In this convention a (usually Gregorian) chant melody or pre-existing secular melody provides the bass line so that the original chant becomes almost undetectable because it is slowed down (often to as small as one note per measure). Above the "chant" would typically be a polyphonic musical structure. Beethoven uses his hymn as a "Cantus Firmus" type structure, with the other 3 string parts weaving motifs from this melody in an almost, at times, fugal counterpoint. So the hymn as "Cantus Firmus" forms the basis of the "Illness" (Molto Adagio) section of the Heiliger Dankegesang, IMO.

Beethoven obviously had a working knowledge of the theory of music going back to at least the early Renaissance period and was able to adapt this to classical models in a highly original, musical and intellectual way. (He wasn't the only composer to do this either). Isn't this just ANOTHER reason why we love him?!

Is should be noted that Cantus Firmus as a musical device is usually used in reference to later music, beginning with the 14th Century. But pre-existent melodies are present in the majority of early polyphonic compositions.

For more reading on this fascinating topic see: Manfred F. Bukofzer, Studies in Medieval and Renaissance Music (NY, Norton, 1950).

He studied with Albrechtsberger, these counterpoint studies included chorale preludes over a cantus firmus. The new aspect (in the 1820s) was the modal harmony together with greater (far greater) imagination. There is a recording of Beethoven's student exercises, fugues primarily, played on organ which makes interesting listening. Far from being ignorant of counterpoint he had a superb grounding from the very outset of his career. He simply did not employ extended fugues in his work until his later years. However, counterpoint is not only learning about form (voice entries, episodes and so forth) it is also about the ways in which a pitch series can be altered through augmentation, diminution, and so forth including fragmentation (breaking it into smaller sections, often to furnish material for a fugal episode). This is obviously something Beethoven was doing from the outset of the Opus 1 piano trios - the E-flat is a particular favourite, in that he launches a 40 bar episode on a fragment of the 'least interesting' segment of the initial theme and creates a wonderful interlude. The fugal studies led to superior motivic development, and later his own fugues began to include motivic development of the themes, as in the Grosse Fugue but also throughout all his fugues. The climax of Et Vitam Venturi in the Missa Solemnis is a variant of the original counter-subject, augmented and syncopated, and sung first by the sopranos and then the basses, against the princial theme in diminution. This is a very sophisticated mix of fugal procedure and dramatic motivic development and neither Bachian nor Handelian.

[Roehre]

[QUOTE=jamesofedinburgh;48861]

The fugal studies led to superior motivic development, and later his own fugues began to include motivic development of the themes, as in the Grosse Fugue but also throughout all his fugues. The climax of Et Vitam Venturi in the Missa Solemnis is a variant of the original counter-subject, augmented and syncopated, and sung first by the sopranos and then the basses, against the princial theme in diminution. This is a very sophisticated mix of fugal procedure and dramatic motivic development and neither Bachian nor Handelian.

Which for the academics in our amidst fuels the opinion that Beethoven hadn't composed one proper fugue in his entire output

[jamesofedinburgh]

[QUOTE=Roehre;48862]

Which for the academics in our amidst fuels the opinion that Beethoven hadn't composed one proper fugue in his entire output

Indeed, 100% right! Some amazingly blinkered listeners (yes, a very mixed metaphor, only partially redeemed by reference to score reading - there are none so blind as those that cannot see etc.....) actually think Beethoven's fugues are 'poor'. One only has to listen to some Mendelsohn and, say, the finale of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony to hear how dull 'proper fugal writing' had become in the 19th c, no matter how accomplished in terms of knowledge of counterpoint. The freedom of Beethoven - 'tantot libre, tantot recherche' as he put it on the score to the Grosse Fugue - is what makes this music so great. There is nothing else like it until Bartok and I can't help but feel - as much as I enjoy the Third and Fifth quartets - that he over-elaborates his writing.

[Roehre]

[QUOTE=jamesofedinburgh;48863]

There is nothing else like it until Bartok and I can't help but feel - as much as I enjoy the Third and Fifth quartets - that he over-elaborates his writing.

100% seconded, and let's not forget Bartok's sonata for violin solo in that respect.

[Bonn1827]

Can anybody recommend the best book to read regarding the late LvB quartets, as I can buy books from Amazon with the Aussie dollar above "parity" at the moment. It's a great time to be buying things from the USA for Aussies!!