did Bach and Handel ever meet?

[Hofrat]

Peter;

I, too, think that Jefferson was not aware that Beethoven was amongst the musicians he may have met, and Beethoven might not know the name of one of many foreign dignantries that received tours of the Electorate's palace. As I said, it is most interesting that the paths of Jefferson and Beethoven may have crossed in Bonn.

[Bonn1827]

I'm simply amazed by the deep background information you people have!! So enjoyable to read it too. Thanks.

[Nachtigall]

What a wonderful thread!

Re: Beethoven and Mozart - I thought Beethoven met with Mozart for a series of lessons during a trip to Wien when the former was 18 or so. And that on hearing him, Mozart paid our Ludwig the possibly backhanded compliment, "Someday that young man will make a great noise in the world!"

Re: Beethoven and Jefferson, two of my favorite topics, I have long wondered if they crossed paths when Jefferson was in Bonn. Jefferson, who spoke French and Italian and who had a thorough knowledge of ancient Greek and Latin, knew not a word of German, though he spoke with admiration of the German people's work ethic and honesty. He bonded with German hog farmers over smoked ham, chuckling at the notion that his hosts thought Germany was the only place in the world that smoked their hams. "They do not know that we do it also," he wrote.

Beethoven, moreover, might have been a young sometime violinist and kapellmeister, but his father had been pimping him out for several years (having gone broke and actually having had to sell Beethoven's late mother's clothing to raise money), attempting to sell him as prodigy pianist. Beethoven was already becoming known for his improvisations. Jefferson eagerly sought out everything that interested him during these travels, including music. He was an avid operagoer and regularly attended musical salons in Paris.

Jefferson spent many hours relishing ancient buildings and fine wines during these trips, and it is possible that he and Beethoven met as musicians - but neither ever made note of it, even late in Jefferson's life. On the other hand, given Jefferson's claims to fame and the politically repressive societies in which Beethoven spent his life, I think the former would likely not wish to endanger the latter by mentioning any meeting, and the latter would not wish to endanger himself. Beethoven's political leanings, as well as his music, can't have been unknown in America, as Beethoven excitedly spoke of a commission "from Boston" in, I believe, 1825 or 1826 - the year of Jefferson's death and the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. It is lost to history whether this commissioned symphony was to be a celebratory piece for America's Golden Jubilee - given the uncharacteristic mediocrity of Richard Wagner's American Centennial March, perhaps it's best we never found out.

I love the idea of Jefferson having challenged Beethoven to improvise on a tune TJ might have played for him on the violin - "Yankee Doodle," perhaps. There's a movie in there somewhere.

[Nachtigall]

I meant possibly unwilling to put himself out if he knew Bach was coming the next day - perhaps he didn't know. Bach wasn't as appreciated as he is now and it was largely down to Mendelssohn that he is. However he was appreciated among musicians and Beethoven was fortunate as a young man having the enlightened Neefe as his teacher who introduced him to the music of Bach in Bonn.

There is another strange coincidence with Bach and Handel - they were both operated on (unsuccessfully) by the same eye surgeon, John Taylor.

Who blinded them both and caused an infection that led to Bach's demise.

As for a meeting between Handel and Bach, keep in mind that in their day, Handel was rich and famous, and Bach was basically doing the job Handel had done back in his days in "the 'Hood" before Elector George of Hanover became King George I and brought his music guy, also named George, along to England to be court composer. In other words, Handel had a vastly more prestigious job than Bach did, and though now many give Bach the edge in greatness or at least consider them equal, in their day, it was not so.

Bach, however, was the type of guy to write to the elector over job issues he was having at the university where he worked, and he was also the type to try to arrange a meeting as equals with someone much more famous than he. I admire his chutzpah and righteous self-confidence. But it's possible Handel couldn't be bothered - which would be, of course, a tragic lost opportunity.

Both Bach and Handel studied with Buxtehude and were, in fact, offered the hand of the old man's daughter (which both declined). It is possible they met under those auspices as well.

I wonder if Bach ever met his idol, Vivaldi, or at least had a correspondence with him. I also wonder if Vivaldi and Handel met during the latter's time in Italy.

To the poster who asked how Mendelssohn was responsible for the revival of Bach's works, Bach was all but forgotten (Beethoven asks in a conversation book, "Then why is he (Bach) dead?") before Mendelssohn led a performance of, I believe, that St. Matthew Passion. This led to a rebirth of interest in the composer, though only a few years before, Beethoven had tried to help raise money to help Bach's last surviving daughter stay out of the poorhouse. We who love Bach owe Mendelssohn our everlasting gratitude.

[Bonn1827]

Yes, we certainly do owe Mendelssohn a debt of gratitude, in more ways than one. I was playing some pieces by this composer on the piano recently (not virtuosic, but 6-7th Grade standard) and was taken by their melodic and harmonic inventiveness and rhythmic variety. Surely even in these slight pieces we hear a deeply original voice in every bar, just as is the case with Schumann. (I get goose bumps from hearing the wonderful accidentals and key changes!!)

It is hard for us today to imagine that Bach had to be "rescued" from obscurity at all!! But, of course, he was considered "old-fashioned" during the time of his composing. "Old-fashioned"!! I try to invoke my muse to put into words what this music means to me and, each time, my muse disappoints.

[Nachtigall]

Yes, we certainly do owe Mendelssohn a debt of gratitude, in more ways than one. I was playing some pieces by this composer on the piano recently (not virtuosic, but 6-7th Grade standard) and was taken by their melodic and harmonic inventiveness and rhythmic variety. Surely even in these slight pieces we hear a deeply original voice in every bar, just as is the case with Schumann. (I get goose bumps from hearing the wonderful accidentals and key changes!!)

It is hard for us today to imagine that Bach had to be "rescued" from obscurity at all!! But, of course, he was considered "old-fashioned" during the time of his composing. "Old-fashioned"!! I try to invoke my muse to put into words what this music means to me and, each time, my muse disappoints.

I love Mendelssohn's music as well. The Italian Symphony and the Midsummer Night's Dream incidental music are among my favorite works.

It wasn't just that Bach was "old fashioned" in his day. As Beethoven would be 70 years later, and as with many 20th century composers, he was misunderstood in his day, both musically and personally. Like these others, his music had a dissonance that we find fascinating and beautiful, but that in his day some people just didn't "get."

We don't know that Handel actually snubbed Bach, but it's easy to imagine his being wary of an overburdened former fellow Buxtehude student from Handel's old "'hood" who had twenty children but not even a horse to call his own, and who wrote such wonderfully dense, crunchy music while Handel largely eschewed dissonance and tended to like his major and minor thirds and open sixths. Moreover, neither man was known for being "personality plus" - Bach was relatively isolated in Leipzig, and shared our Ludwig's capacity for pissing people off (or for being PO'ed himself).

Handel was a shame-ridden, closeted gay man with an eating disorder which he, like any addict, attempted to hide. He ruined one friendship by inviting his pal to dinner, telling him he could expect only simple food - then his friend caught him going off into another room to stuff his face with expensive junk food when he thought the friend wasn't looking. Now we would view this event with more compassion, knowing what we do about the psychology of addiction and of eating disorders, but Handel's friend, an artist, was infuriated and retaliated by drawing a nasty caricature of the composer gorging himself, cementing the end of the friendship.

It's too bad the meeting never happened, because the two German chubbies might well have hit it off. It reminds me a bit of the meeting between Beethoven and his idol Goethe, or later the first meeting between poor Schubert and Beethoven, which led to the former rushing home and throwing his compositions on the fire, vowing never to compose again.

And we think we've got it rough.

[Peter]

We don't know that Handel actually snubbed Bach, but it's easy to imagine his being wary of an overburdened former fellow Buxtehude student from Handel's old "'hood" who had twenty children but not even a horse to call his own, and who wrote such wonderfully dense, crunchy music while Handel largely eschewed dissonance and tended to like his major and minor thirds and open sixths. Moreover, neither man was known for being "personality plus" - Bach was relatively isolated in Leipzig, and shared our Ludwig's capacity for pissing people off (or for being PO'ed himself).

Yes a lot of these composers were not actually that easy to get on with and were frankly objectionable - Wagner especially comes to mind! I think the one I would have liked to have met most would be Haydn, he seems the most sane!

Handel was a shame-ridden, closeted gay man with an eating disorder which he, like any addict, attempted to hide. He ruined one friendship by inviting his pal to dinner, telling him he could expect only simple food - then his friend caught him going off into another room to stuff his face with expensive junk food when he thought the friend wasn't looking. Now we would view this event with more compassion, knowing what we do about the psychology of addiction and of eating disorders, but Handel's friend, an artist, was infuriated and retaliated by drawing a nasty caricature of the composer gorging himself, cementing the end of the friendship.

Interesting - I always thought Handel could be gay, is there any evidence for this though?

[Bonn1827]

Well, Nachtigall, I think possibly some of those tales are apocryphal!!

Closeted gay? It is of almost no consequence really. I don't care whether these composers were portly, petulant or profane, corpulent, critical or charismatic - what matters is their music. When I suggested Bach was "old-fashioned" I didn't mean that he fell out of favour over time because of dissonances or of audiences' lack of understanding - Bach's "audiences" were church congregations and chamber enthusiasts, in the main. It was his style of densely contrapuntal music which had gone by its use-by date, according to my musicological readings.

However, I think your description of "crunchy" music was superb!! It's good to read your blogs.

[Preston]

Re: Beethoven and Mozart - I thought Beethoven met with Mozart for a series of lessons during a trip to Wien when the former was 18 or so. And that on hearing him, Mozart paid our Ludwig the possibly backhanded compliment, "Someday that young man will make a great noise in the world!"

It is possible, and perhaps likely, that Mozart heard Beethoven play. Though, I doubt they met- seeing as there is no account of it, and Beethoven never once mentioned it, nor did any of his friends and acquaintances.

[Preston]

Handel was a shame-ridden, closeted gay man with an eating disorder which he, like any addict, attempted to hide.

Interesting - I always thought Handel could be gay, is there any evidence for this though?

There is no solid proof that Handel was gay, to my understanding. The man was not fond of sex, as I understand it. So, that does not make him gay, more like chaste.

[Peter]

There is no solid proof that Handel was gay, to my understanding. The man was not fond of sex, as I understand it. So, that does not make him gay, more like chaste.

We simply don't know Preston, but Bonn is quite right that it shouldn't make any difference as the music is of paramount importance. However it is strange how we judge people. Gesualdo for instance murdered his wife and because of the lapse in time it doesn't seem to unsettle us - now had Shostakovich done this, would we not feel differently?

[Preston]

We simply don't know Preston...

That was kind of my point.

[Nachtigall]

It is possible, and perhaps likely, that Mozart heard Beethoven play. Though, I doubt they met- seeing as there is no account of it, and Beethoven never once mentioned it, nor did any of his friends and acquaintances.

Then why did all the Beethoven biographies I ever read (before Thayer) give that anecdote about Beethoven spending a week in Wien working with Mozart, and Mozart being "indifferent" to Beethoven's playing, then Mozart making the "Great noise in the world" comment? Plus Beethoven's having had to leave Wien because his mother was dying, etc.... I thought that was an established part of Beethoven lore. Has it been debunked by (very) recent scholarship?

[Preston]

Then why did all the Beethoven biographies I ever read (before Thayer) give that anecdote about Beethoven spending a week in Wien working with Mozart, and Mozart being "indifferent" to Beethoven's playing, then Mozart making the "Great noise in the world" comment? Plus Beethoven's having had to leave Wien because his mother was dying, etc.... I thought that was an established part of Beethoven lore. Has it been debunked by (very) recent scholarship?

As far as I knew they had never met. Though, perhaps you are right?

[Nachtigall]

Well, Nachtigall, I think possibly some of those tales are apocryphal!!

Closeted gay? It is of almost no consequence really. I don't care whether these composers were portly, petulant or profane, corpulent, critical or charismatic - what matters is their music. When I suggested Bach was "old-fashioned" I didn't mean that he fell out of favour over time because of dissonances or of audiences' lack of understanding - Bach's "audiences" were church congregations and chamber enthusiasts, in the main. It was his style of densely contrapuntal music which had gone by its use-by date, according to my musicological readings.

However, I think your description of "crunchy" music was superb!! It's good to read your blogs.

You're right that it doesn't matter whether or not Handel was gay. Moreover, in this day and age it is considered to be unfathomable that a psychologically normal person could choose to be celibate for decades or for a lifetime, but back in the day, unmarried people of both sexes were presumed to be chaste, and that was considered to be the behavior morally sanctioned by the church and by society. Now there is a presumption that everyone MUST be "doing" someone, and if they're not, why then, they must be even MORE perverted, and likely prefer doing it with goats or something.

It is entirely possible that Handel's major sexual and emotional outlet was with food, for example. The anecdote about the friend and the drawing is apparently real, if the drawing survives and its story came from that source. However, we'll never know for sure, will we?

For your perusal:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/m...ed-Handel.html