did Bach and Handel ever meet?

[Bonn1827]

Nachtigall, I'm sure you've been reading far too much the writings of the philosopher Peter Singer (regarding goats etc)!!!

Peter, I agree that we seem to have forgotten Gesualdo's criminal past, and the fact that Giovanni Stradella was murdered at a young age. What was he up to? I don't know but I love his "San Giovanni Battista". This could be the subject of a separate thread: Treacherous Composers. The list would be long!

[Preston]

Moreover, in this day and age it is considered to be unfathomable that a psychologically normal person could choose to be celibate for decades or for a lifetime, but back in the day, unmarried people of both sexes were presumed to be chaste, and that was considered to be the behavior morally sanctioned by the church and by society. Now there is a presumption that everyone MUST be "doing" someone, and if they're not, why then, they must be even MORE perverted, and likely prefer doing it with goats or something.

It is possible that Handel was chaste, and believed in it. Maybe he felt that sex was a sin?

[Chris]

It is possible that Handel was chaste, and believed in it. Maybe he felt that sex was a sin?

Outside of marriage, yes, probably he did, but not in general, as that would not be consistent with Lutheranism. Unless he had some odd psychological issue with it. Possibly he was just not interested in it, or preferred to remain celibate anyway to have more time to himself for composing or other things.

Beethoven seemed disappointed that he never found a wife, but I wonder if he really would have been happy being married?

[Nachtigall]

Outside of marriage, yes, probably he did, but not in general, as that would not be consistent with Lutheranism. Unless he had some odd psychological issue with it. Possibly he was just not interested in it, or preferred to remain celibate anyway to have more time to himself for composing or other things.

Beethoven seemed disappointed that he never found a wife, but I wonder if he really would have been happy being married?

I doubt Beethoven would have ever been happy with the kind of woman he fantasized about - the Leonore-noble-wife type. He needed someone homespun, affectionate, tolerant, and willing to clean up after him. He wanted someone beautiful, rich, aristocratic, brilliant, talented, chaste and self-sacrificing - great, but the type of man that he was wouldn't have coped well with someone who made stringent social and behavioral demands of him. He rejected at least one woman - Therese von Brunswick - who had all the qualities he wanted except for delicate beauty (poor lamb ended up an old maid, carrying a torch to the end). Deep down, Beethoven likely knew that he didn't have enough to give to anyone else, having sacrificed all to the muse, and that the kind of wife he wanted could never tolerate the financial and social uncertainty of being married to a deaf musician. However, the bottom line in those days was that Beethoven didn't want a peasant girl - he wanted a noblewoman, but because of a combination of the lowly social status of musicians in those days and of Beethoven's own personality quirks, none of the families of the noblewomen Beethoven got interested in would sign off on a marriage.

[Nachtigall]

Nachtigall, I'm sure you've been reading far too much the writings of the philosopher Peter Singer (regarding goats etc)!!!

Peter, I agree that we seem to have forgotten Gesualdo's criminal past, and the fact that Giovanni Stradella was murdered at a young age. What was he up to? I don't know but I love his "San Giovanni Battista". This could be the subject of a separate thread: Treacherous Composers. The list would be long!

I have never read Peter Singer, so it would be difficult for me to read too much into his writings!

And the list of Treacherous Composers wouldn't be nearly as long as the list of Treacherous Impresarios. Just throwing that out there!

[Preston]

Outside of marriage, yes, probably he did, but not in general, as that would not be consistent with Lutheranism. Unless he had some odd psychological issue with it.

Interesting points about Lutheranism Chris. I know all too little of Handel and Lutheranism. I do not think it would be a psychological issue, though. Many spiritual people practice chastity- and, the Christian monks of Handel's day, many did believe in being chaste- which seems odd to me- Christian and chaste? Yes, a wife- I understand when concerning Christianity, though the Bible did say Jesus and Mary would kiss upon the mouth often?

As for Beethoven, I really do not know?

Although, I see Nachtigall does, . Just joking.

No seriously, was it another obsession of Beethoven's to try and seem as though he lived an "normal" life. Gould hummed every single time he played Bach, etc. Would, it be too much to say that perhaps Beethoven's eccentricity got the best of him? Was he just obsessively rambling? Did he not want a wife at all? I don't know. Just some thoughts.

Either way, with Beethoven, I believe, it would have taken a wife as eccentric as he! Seriously.

[Chris]

Interesting points about Lutheranism Chris. I know all too little of Handel and Lutheranism. I do not think it would be a psychological issue, though. Many spiritual people practice chastity- and, the Christian monks of Handel's day, many did believe in being chaste- which seems odd to me- Christian and chaste?

The Catholic monks and priests practiced celibacy as a discipline, to give themselves completely to God and their ministries, and to be more like Jesus. They did not believe it was necessary, though, or in any way sinful to have a wife. Indeed, large families were seen as a great blessing. Celibacy is not so prevalent in Lutheranism, though. They do not have a priesthood as such, and though Lutheran monks do exist, they are not significant in number. It would seem unlikely for Handel to have practiced celibacy merely as a spiritual discipline, particularly since he seemed to have no such objections to indulging in food! I suspect it was merely personal preference.

[Bonn1827]

There is plenty of sexuality and passion in Handel's many operas. Perhaps he sublimated his desires and expressed them that way!! Who knows - it doesn't matter as we have been left with his wonderful works.

[Nachtigall]

Interesting points about Lutheranism Chris. I know all too little of Handel and Lutheranism. I do not think it would be a psychological issue, though. Many spiritual people practice chastity- and, the Christian monks of Handel's day, many did believe in being chaste- which seems odd to me- Christian and chaste? Yes, a wife- I understand when concerning Christianity, though the Bible did say Jesus and Mary would kiss upon the mouth often?

As for Beethoven, I really do not know?

Although, I see Nachtigall does, . Just joking.

I have read one treatise/master's thesis too many on "The Immortal Beloved."

No seriously, was it another obsession of Beethoven's to try and seem as though he lived an "normal" life. Gould hummed every single time he played Bach, etc. Would, it be too much to say that perhaps Beethoven's eccentricity got the best of him? Was he just obsessively rambling? Did he not want a wife at all? I don't know. Just some thoughts.

Either way, with Beethoven, I believe, it would have taken a wife as eccentric as he! Seriously.

Well that's just it though - he didn't seem to WANT someone as eccentric as he. If he did, he would have snapped up Bettina Brentano while he had the chance!

[Preston]

Well that's just it though - he didn't seem to WANT someone as eccentric as he. If he did, he would have snapped up Bettina Brentano while he had the chance!

I was saying that it would have probably taken someone of equal eccentricity for a marriage with Beethoven to work, even if that was not what he wanted.

[Preston]

The Catholic monks and priests practiced celibacy as a discipline, to give themselves completely to God and their ministries, and to be more like Jesus. They did not believe it was necessary, though, or in any way sinful to have a wife. Indeed, large families were seen as a great blessing. Celibacy is not so prevalent in Lutheranism, though. They do not have a priesthood as such, and though Lutheran monks do exist, they are not significant in number. It would seem unlikely for Handel to have practiced celibacy merely as a spiritual discipline, particularly since he seemed to have no such objections to indulging in food! I suspect it was merely personal preference.

Yes, the celibate clergy, !

You are probably right, though what I wonder is- how many followers of a religion actually cohere to the religion itself- not many it seems. So, because he was Lutheran (which I did not know) he still may have had different feelings than the strict interpretations of Lutheranism? So, if that is so, he may have followed more of path of Lutheranism, but mixed with his own beliefs- which is common.

[Preston]

Well that's just it though - he didn't seem to WANT someone as eccentric as he. If he did, he would have snapped up Bettina Brentano while he had the chance!

Also, I felt I want to mention this. Yes, Beethoven did go after a lot of attractive countesses. Though, is it possible he was thinking not with his mind, but something else, .

The reason I say this, is for several reasons. One in a letter to a young girl who made a purse for him, he wrote to the young Emilie, "I should very much like to come and visit your family, instead of all the rich people I visit- whose only poverty is their innerselves."

Also, he railed hard against the nobility throughout his life, to my understanding, and especially to the extreme in his last period.

Just some thoughts.

[Chris]

Yes, the celibate clergy, !

You are probably right, though what I wonder is- how many followers of a religion actually cohere to the religion itself- not many it seems.

It depends on the time period. Certainly more then than now. Handel reportedly derived great satisfaction from setting the scriptures to music and was proud of his Biblical knowledge.

So, because he was Lutheran (which I did not know) he still may have had different feelings than the strict interpretations of Lutheranism? So, if that is so, he may have followed more of path of Lutheranism, but mixed with his own beliefs- which is common.

Perhaps, but generally people don't modify their standard religious beliefs by making things MORE difficult for themselves.

[Peter]

Then why did all the Beethoven biographies I ever read (before Thayer) give that anecdote about Beethoven spending a week in Wien working with Mozart, and Mozart being "indifferent" to Beethoven's playing, then Mozart making the "Great noise in the world" comment? Plus Beethoven's having had to leave Wien because his mother was dying, etc.... I thought that was an established part of Beethoven lore. Has it been debunked by (very) recent scholarship?

It is simply that there is no firm evidence either way. I think it highly likely they did meet as it was Beethoven's purpose in travelling to Vienna to study with Mozart and in the brief time he was there he would surely have sought Mozart out? The comment about Beethoven 'making a great noise in the world' sounds like Romantic invention to me.

[Peter]

Peter, I agree that we seem to have forgotten Gesualdo's criminal past, and the fact that Giovanni Stradella was murdered at a young age. What was he up to? I don't know but I love his "San Giovanni Battista". This could be the subject of a separate thread: Treacherous Composers. The list would be long!

Good idea Bonn!