Slurs of the same note in Beethoven's scores

[djmomo17]

I guess the bebung concept supports period musicians who play Beethoven's sonatas on fortepianos? Assuming you can't do a bebung on a modern piano for Op 110?

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

I guess the bebung concept supports period musicians who play Beethoven's sonatas on fortepianos? Assuming you can't do a bebung on a modern piano for Op 110?

"There's no effect on a fortepiano that I can't do on a Steinway as well."

Alfred Brendel

[Peter]

"There's no effect on a fortepiano that I can't do on a Steinway as well."

Alfred Brendel

According to Turk's 'Klavierschule' of 1789, the Bebung was an ornament only the clavichord was capable of so why do you suggest it for strings? C.P.E Bach implies the same in his 'Versuch' where he explains the effect as being produced by the finger remaining on the key and 'evenly rocks it'. Incidentally the sign used for the Bebung (either a slur with dots underneath or the the word tremolo) is not that used by Beethoven in any of his works, so how do you suggest the passages are played in Op.110 - what effect was Beethoven asking for? Clearly he intends a repetition of the second tied note. I accept that there is a difference with string vibrato, but in practice the clavichord players did not make such a distinction which has perhaps led to the confusion?

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

According to Turk's 'Klavierschule' of 1789, the Bebung was an ornament only the clavichord was capable of so why do you suggest it for strings? C.P.E Bach implies the same in his 'Versuch' where he explains the effect as being produced by the finger remaining on the key and 'evenly rocks it'. Incidentally the sign used for the Bebung (either a slur with dots underneath or the the word tremolo) is not that used by Beethoven in any of his works, so how do you suggest the passages are played in Op.110 - what effect was Beethoven asking for? Clearly he intends a repetition of the second tied note. I accept that there is a difference with string vibrato, but in practice the clavichord players did not make such a distinction which has perhaps led to the confusion?

Turk didn't distinguish between Bebung and vibrato, because he already was among the victims of a confusion. The facts are very plain: variation of loudness is a Bebung, variation of frequency is a vibrato. The word "tremolo" very often was used with a wrong meaning. Montgomery: "Where it did not mean "trill" (which is another wrinkle entirely,) the word "tremolo" once referred to a single-pitch ornament achieved by regular interruptions or cancellations of a sound-continuum, as opposed to a pitch-changing vibrato." This is what we find in the introduction to the Adagio-and-Fugue in Op. 110. A piano imitation of a messa di voce with Bebung.

[Peter]

Turk didn't distinguish between Bebung and vibrato, because he already was among the victims of a confusion. The facts are very plain: variation of loudness is a Bebung, variation of frequency is a vibrato. The word "tremolo" very often was used with a wrong meaning. Montgomery: "Where it did not mean "trill" (which is another wrinkle entirely,) the word "tremolo" once referred to a single-pitch ornament achieved by regular interruptions or cancellations of a sound-continuum, as opposed to a pitch-changing vibrato." This is what we find in the introduction to the Adagio-and-Fugue in Op. 110. A piano imitation of a messa di voce with Bebung.

Yes so we agree there was and is confusion on the issue. So you agree with what I originally said regarding the interpretation of the Beethoven passages in the Grosse Fugue and Op.110 that the second tied note is to be repeated softer than the first? Regarding the bebumg on the clavichord, C.P.E.Bach appears confused as well because he describes a 'rocking movement' which suggests vibrato. Turk's description actually sounds closer to what you are describing for the bebung - "One keeps the finger on the key as long as the value of the note requires, and endeavours by gentle, frequently repeated pressures to reinforce the tone."

[Acey]

How does Beethoven notate the Grosse Fuge theme in his four-hands piano arrangement?

I've always been sceptical of the suggestion that the repeated note in Opus 110 is a Bebung, an ornament impossible on any keyboard instrument except a clavichord (and with its own standard notation). Like the swells in the 20th Diabelli Variation (bars 10,11), the passage in opus 110 is inherently unplayable, if taken literally.

I don't have the score of Opus 134 but if Beethoven retains the notation of the string parts it would be another instance of unplayability, though easy to see the logic of retaining the impression of string playing within the piano score. Something similarly imitative seems to be going on in Opus 110, though surely it's an imitation of voice (recitative and aria) rather than clavichord.

[Peter]

How does Beethoven notate the Grosse Fuge theme in his four-hands piano arrangement?

I've always been sceptical of the suggestion that the repeated note in Opus 110 is a Bebung, an ornament impossible on any keyboard instrument except a clavichord (and with its own standard notation). Like the swells in the 20th Diabelli Variation (bars 10,11), the passage in opus 110 is inherently unplayable, if taken literally.

I don't have the score of Opus 134 but if Beethoven retains the notation of the string parts it would be another instance of unplayability, though easy to see the logic of retaining the impression of string playing within the piano score. Something similarly imitative seems to be going on in Opus 110, though surely it's an imitation of voice (recitative and aria) rather than clavichord.

Welcome to the forum Acey - yes interesting points. According to this he retains the ties in the duet version.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...r5znQGy2Dvqso=

[Hofrat]

Beethoven uses "same note slurs" quite impressively in his sonata for piano and 'cello opus 69 second movement. Both the piano and the 'cello play them throughout.