A question about "Ode to Joy"

[Julie]

I was reading about Beethoven's 9th symphony and apparently, some of the critics of that piece were very harsh. One critic in 1868 was cited as saying that the beginning theme resembled "Yankee Doodle", then he goes on to say how awful the symphony was...(quoted from The Beethoven Companion, pages 938-939) Anyhow, I had never really thought about it (found it preposterous when I read it!), but when I started humming it to myself, I could see the similarity with that song. My question is, did Yankee Doodle exist back in Beethoven's day? and if it did, do you think he would have heard it, and could it have had any influence on his composition of Ode to Joy?

NB edited for typo

[This message has been edited by Julie (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Julie:
I was reading about Beethoven's 9th symphony and apparently, some of the critics of that piece were very harsh. One critic in 1868 was cited as saying that the beginning theme resembled "Yankee Doodle", then he goes on to say how awful the symphony was...(quoted from The Beethoven Companion, pages 938-939) Anyhow, I had never really thought about it (found it preposterous when I read it!), but when I started humming it to myself, I could see the similarity with that song. My question is, did Yankee Doodle exist back in Beethoven's day? and if it did, do you think he would have heard it, and could it have had any influence on his composition of Ode to Joy?

NB edited for typo

[This message has been edited by Julie (edited 08-27-2001).]

On the contrary, the Yankee Doodle theme was the result of a botched attempt by some US copyist to pirate the Ode score. Thus in New York the 9th was performed with this incorrect theme for the ode. The yanks liked it so much that, typically, they stole the theme for a nationalist song of their own with the 'Yankee Doodle' lyrics. Some copies of these incorrect scores still exist in the US, and even today you can still here occasional performances of the 9th in the US with the Yankee Doodle theme used in the finale. Bernstein wasn't aware of the mistake for years.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Julie]

Thank you Rod for your post, boy am I relieved to hear this! I feel so much better now!

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
On the contrary, the Yankee Doodle theme was the result of a botched attempt by some US copyist to pirate the Ode score. Thus in New York the 9th was performed with this incorrect theme for the ode. The yanks liked it so much that, typically, they stole the theme for a nationalist song of their own with the 'Yankee Doodle' lyrics. Some copies of these incorrect scores still exist in the US, and even today you can still here occasional performances of the 9th in the US with the Yankee Doodle theme used in the finale. Bernstein wasn't aware of the mistake for years.

Gawd almighty! Is this for real? I've never heard about this until now! You certainly learn new things at this site.

Michael

[Vipercat]

Originally posted by Julie:
I was reading about Beethoven's 9th symphony and apparently, some of the critics of that piece were very harsh. One critic in 1868 was cited as saying that the beginning theme resembled "Yankee Doodle", then he goes on to say how awful the symphony was...(quoted from The Beethoven Companion, pages 938-939) Anyhow, I had never really thought about it (found it preposterous when I read it!), but when I started humming it to myself, I could see the similarity with that song. My question is, did Yankee Doodle exist back in Beethoven's day? and if it did, do you think he would have heard it, and could it have had any influence on his composition of Ode to Joy?

[This message has been edited by Julie (edited 08-27-2001).]

Unbelievable! How can anyone think the Ninth Symphony is bad???? My goodness! Well, thanks for the interesting bit of information, Julie!

[kerryblue]

Hi, Julie.

Yankee Doodle was very much around in LVB's time; it was a great favorite of General Washington's troops in the War of British Aggression in 1778. However, for anyone to link the Ode with Yankee Doodle is the equivalent of criticizing a Renoir or Monet masterwork because they both contain the same scenes of the Seine found in any amateur's repertoire of the 1880's. While the notes or scenes may be similar, what makes LVB (or Renoir or Monet) great is development, transition, exposition, and taking the listener(viewer) to another level of understanding and consciousness.

I love Yankee Doodle, but a thousand listenings won't take me anywhere except to the audiologist.

Fret not, the Ode is sublime.

Cheers

Originally posted by Julie:
I was reading about Beethoven's 9th symphony and apparently, some of the critics of that piece were very harsh. One critic in 1868 was cited as saying that the beginning theme resembled "Yankee Doodle", then he goes on to say how awful the symphony was...(quoted from The Beethoven Companion, pages 938-939) Anyhow, I had never really thought about it (found it preposterous when I read it!), but when I started humming it to myself, I could see the similarity with that song. My question is, did Yankee Doodle exist back in Beethoven's day? and if it did, do you think he would have heard it, and could it have had any influence on his composition of Ode to Joy?

NB edited for typo

[This message has been edited by Julie (edited 08-27-2001).]