Romanticism v. Classical style

[djmomo17]

Can you contrast Beethoven and Mahler then? Or Prokofiev? Mahler and Prokofiev's symphonies have definite tonal centers, yet I can tell the difference within a few measures. Why? Also Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony has color, especially in the Storm section. Could that movement be called "impressionism"?

[Peter]

Can you contrast Beethoven and Mahler then? Or Prokofiev? Mahler and Prokofiev's symphonies have definite tonal centers, yet I can tell the difference within a few measures. Why? Also Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony has color, especially in the Storm section. Could that movement be called "impressionism"?

From around the end of the 17th century up until the beginning of the 20th, the major-minor scale system was the common language used by composers. The reason you can tell the difference is because every great composer has his own voice, his own style that generally make his music instantly recognisable even when they are contemporary such as Bach, Handel, Scarlatti / Haydn and Mozart / Bruckner, Brahms / Mahler, Sibelius, Strauss / Shostakovich and Prokofiev - . This of course has its parallels in other art forms - Dickens, Austen and Hardy for example use the same language but are quite distinct.

[djmomo17]

From around the end of the 17th century up until the beginning of the 20th, the major-minor scale system was the common language used by composers. The reason you can tell the difference is because every great composer has his own voice, his own style that generally make his music instantly recognisable even when they are contemporary such as Bach, Handel, Scarlatti / Haydn and Mozart / Bruckner, Brahms / Mahler, Sibelius, Strauss / Shostakovich and Prokofiev - . This of course has its parallels in other art forms - Dickens, Austen and Hardy for example use the same language but are quite distinct.

I agree that every composer has his own voice (well, every GOOD composer) but can you be more specific on a harmonic/melodic level? The major/minor scale is used by Billy Joel but I can tell his work from a Beethoven sonata instantly. Sorry if these seem like dumb questions, I'm really curious...

[Peter]

I agree that every composer has his own voice (well, every GOOD composer) but can you be more specific on a harmonic/melodic level? The major/minor scale is used by Billy Joel but I can tell his work from a Beethoven sonata instantly. Sorry if these seem like dumb questions, I'm really curious...

It is the use a composer makes of the same basic ingredients that is the difference. To take your example of Billy Joel or most pop music - the harmonies are quite basic and the structures very short - the melodies often have much repetition and there is no real development of thematic material.
So there are characteristics that composers have - Beethoven for example has a tendency to try to avoid the classical tonic-dominant relationship, but as Rosen points out he uses 'substitute dominants' such as the mediant that function in the same way by providing the increase in tension that is common to secondary classical tonalities, but not to early Romantic composers who generally have a weakening of tension.

This is a very complex topic and Rosen's book is the one to help, BUT it is not easy reading and takes a lot of digesting to understand his perspectives - it helps if you are a musician!

[Bonn1827]

I absolutely agree, Peter, about the Rosen. I found it extremely difficult to grapple with and I have 2 other university degrees!! I also play piano (not well) and have studied up to 7th grade musicianship and still found Rosen challenging.

These issues are not simple to deal with. I think the question really involves musical "fingerprints" to a degree, really. And this was covered some time ago on another thread, if I'm not mistaken. And now I must return to "Anna Karenina"!!