Beethoven: off-beat...

[Preston]

A member of the forum, Philip- to be precise, has stated before that Beethoven would compose very off-beat music. I wholly agree. Yet, at the same time, I do not hear it. For me, it is one of those things you know is there, but you cannot hear or see it.

So my question is- how does one go about writing tempo for off-beat music?

[Sorrano]

Music that is "off-beat" is simply music syncopated. It does not affect the given tempo; it simply means that notes that are not on the even beats are stressed more than the ones that are.

[Preston]

Sorrano, thank you for your reply. I have listened to examples of music concerning syncopation (a word I had never heard before), yet, they did not really sound like what I was talking about. Perhaps, it is my ears. Though, I have uploaded a file to Sound Click, which is me playing Fur Elise trying to capture what I thought off-beat was. It is only a piano so it might be hard to tell, though, I think you all will see what I mean?

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=941198

[Peter]

Sorrano, thank you for your reply. I have listened to examples of music concerning syncopation (a word I had never heard before), yet, they did not really sound like what I was talking about. Perhaps, it is my ears. Though, I have uploaded a file to Sound Click, which is me playing Fur Elise trying to capture what I thought off-beat was. It is only a piano so it might be hard to tell, though, I think you all will see what I mean?

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=941198

Here is a very good example of syncopation - the Courante from Bach's Partita no.6. The left hand is playing on the beat whilst the right hand is off the beat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaCGq...eature=related

[Preston]

WOW! Good example.

What I find interesting is that somehow the piece by Bach, only to my ears, resembles slightly of Beethoven- which I do not usually hear in Bach. Yet, at the same time I still cannot hear syncopation (I guess that is the right word) when listening to Beethoven? Interesting. Thanks Peter.

[Michael]

Possibly Philip might have meant something else by "offbeat" which can be applied to anything unusual or eccentric - which would indeed apply to Beethoven. He was a master of syncopation but also he was "off the beaten track".

[Sorrano]

I find Philip, also, to be a master of "syncopation".

[Preston]

Music that is "off-beat" is simply music syncopated. It does not affect the given tempo; it simply means that notes that are not on the even beats are stressed more than the ones that are.

Am I right in saying the 2nd mov. of the 9th is a very rhythmic piece? It seems to me that it is. If so, do you know what is the primary instrument or pattern is that plays or is the even beats? I just am having trouble with Beethoven and syncopation. Is it possible that the pianists and orchestra's, etc. are not playing with syncopation, or, enough of it?

Also, I wonder this- would it be possible to write the tempo in given areas for each individual section or instrument? Would that not be better than writing a tempo for an entire mov. and all instruments at the same time?

I swear the 2nd mov. of the 9th flies by so fast to me that I cannot even hear what just happened. This is why I am always asking about tempo, especially with Beethoven- because, to my mind, is feeling not better when savored (Instead of savor the flavor- savor the feelings- just to a far greater degree and level of thought or state of mind). I understand writing a fast piece but the tempo of the 1st and 2nd movements of the 9th are so fast I cannot make it out, well, at all. Then again, I am no master of the orchestra. But geez, that is blazing fast music. Now, the 3rd is quite good, .

He was a master of syncopation...

I agree. The problem, for me, is I am not hearing this- it must be my ears. Yet, I heard the Bach piece quite clearly? Yes, it was more in your face, but with Beethoven I cannot hear it, with for instance, his piano sonatas- maybe some in the Hammerklavier. I thought the pianist could have taken the Bach piece and made it even more off-beat?

[Hofrat]

Preston;

Beethoven's 4th symphony contains a lot of syncopation.

[Peter]

Am I right in saying the 2nd mov. of the 9th is a very rhythmic piece? It seems to me that it is. If so, do you know what is the primary instrument or pattern is that plays or is the even beats? I just am having trouble with Beethoven and syncopation. Is it possible that the pianists and orchestra's, etc. are not playing with syncopation, or, enough of it?

Also, I wonder this- would it be possible to write the tempo in given areas for each individual section or instrument? Would that not be better than writing a tempo for an entire mov. and all instruments at the same time?

I swear the 2nd mov. of the 9th flies by so fast to me that I cannot even hear what just happened. This is why I am always asking about tempo, especially with Beethoven- because, to my mind, is feeling not better when savored (Instead of savor the flavor- savor the feelings- just to a far greater degree and level of thought or state of mind). I understand writing a fast piece but the tempo of the 1st and 2nd movements of the 9th are so fast I cannot make it out, well, at all. Then again, I am no master of the orchestra. But geez, that is blazing fast music. Now, the 3rd is quite good, .

I agree. The problem, for me, is I am not hearing this- it must be my ears. Yet, I heard the Bach piece quite clearly? Yes, it was more in your face, but with Beethoven I cannot hear it, with for instance, his piano sonatas- maybe some in the Hammerklavier. I thought the pianist could have taken the Bach piece and made it even more off-beat?

Firstly all music has rhythm or else it isn't music - Wikipedia defines rhythm as a "movement marked by the regulated succession of strong and weak elements, or of opposite or different conditions." So there is no such thing as 'a lot of rhythm'. What you mean is that the rhythmic drive is easily discernible as in the case of the first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony. In the case of syncopation, the example I gave you was one where the effect is obvious because the composer uses it throughout the piece virtually on every beat - few pieces do this so the norm is that it occurs occasionally in a piece and it is that you are not hearing.

[Zevy]

Preston;

Beethoven's 4th symphony contains a lot of syncopation.

Simple example of synchopation: The first 4 bars of Mozart's "little" G minor symphony, #25, K. 183

[Michael]

"Rhythms" is one of the longest words in the English language that does not contain any vowels.
Hope this bit of offbeat information helps.

[Michael]

Preston;

Beethoven's 4th symphony contains a lot of syncopation.

Very much so, especially the adagio with its syncopated "backing track". The same rhythmic pattern can be found in the second movement of
Opus 59, No. 2.

[Preston]

Firstly all music has rhythm or else it isn't music...

That is hard to believe? I imagine, there could easily be glorious, divine, sublime, etc. music written without rhythm- where, the feelings just flow, and time, rhythm, beat, etc. are all defied- music of sheer feeling.

[Sorrano]

That is hard to believe? I imagine, there could easily be glorious, divine, sublime, etc. music written without rhythm- where, the feelings just flow, and time, rhythm, beat, etc. are all defied- music of sheer feeling.

Peter is correct. You also have harmonic rhythm to keep in mind.