modern composers use of the orchestra when compared with the classical masters...

[Quijote]

Not at all - I do not accept Beethoven was using the orchestra in the Pastoral as simple colour contrast. What about his immitation of bird-song? I'm sure the 6th had great influence on Berlioz's revolutionary approach to orchestration.

Well, bird song is melodic, not timbral, I would have thought.

[Sorrano]

Not at all - I do not accept Beethoven was using the orchestra in the Pastoral as simple colour contrast. What about his immitation of bird-song? I'm sure the 6th had great influence on Berlioz's revolutionary approach to orchestration.

These things are single instance effects. That is to say, most of the orchestration on Beethoven's symphonic output is based on the simple color contrast. There are exceptions, as with other composers of the period, but these are simply exceptions.

I think that Berlioz's approach to orchestration is more based upon the French operatic traditions.

[Preston]

Contemporary masters of orchestration / instrumentation? Here is a short list : Ligeti, Boulez, Adès, Benjamin, Dillon ... the list goes on.

So, it would seem that you and Sorrano are saying that people, of this nature, have a better understanding of the orchestra than Beethoven? That must be wrong.

Sorrano, the reason I referred to Beethoven's genius is because surely he had a better understanding and mastery of the orchestra than the contempory musicians mentioned, because of his genius.

I am convinced that even though people like Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart, etc. did not even use a portamento effect, at the same time their music is based wholly around effect- and, not just a "structural-building-block"- which seems an absurd thing to say. I mean do you really think that the great genius of Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. used the orchestra not for effect but as a structural-building-block?

"technical-timbral exploitation"...

I am guessing these are what I called above "hack-effects"?

[Peter]

These things are single instance effects. That is to say, most of the orchestration on Beethoven's symphonic output is based on the simple color contrast. There are exceptions, as with other composers of the period, but these are simply exceptions.

I think that Berlioz's approach to orchestration is more based upon the French operatic traditions.

I think Berlioz can be credited in his orchestration with a little more than a being a mere immitator of past traditions!

[Sorrano]

I think Berlioz can be credited in his orchestration with a little more than a being a mere immitator of past traditions!

At least not the German symphonic traditions! The symphonie fantastique makes a complete break of that tradition and lends itself well with the operatic traditions of orchestral effects and usage. I refer, of course, to the French grand operatic traditions.

Berlioz simply didn't come up with these ideas out of the blue. Very few people have truly original ideas; mostly the thought processes gel from combinations of thought processes that existed in the past.

[Peter]

At least not the German symphonic traditions! The symphonie fantastique makes a complete break of that tradition and lends itself well with the operatic traditions of orchestral effects and usage. I refer, of course, to the French grand operatic traditions.

Berlioz simply didn't come up with these ideas out of the blue. Very few people have truly original ideas; mostly the thought processes gel from combinations of thought processes that existed in the past.

Sorry Sorrano I don't agree. Symphonie Fantastique was totally original - nothing like it exists in music before either in terms of conception or orchestral effects.