modern composers use of the orchestra when compared with the classical masters...

[Preston]

Very little of the present composers interests me at all I'm afraid, maybe in 100 years time!

I think you are saying what I was saying. They do not have mastery of the forms, theory's, styles, articulations, etc.- of the true masters. In other words it is a completely different use and approach, of and to, the orchestra- which I, too, do not like.

[EDIT]- I wanted to clarify- as of present, I believe the better wording is- it is harder for me to respect, instead of not liking. Also, I do enjoy the feelings of some of the modern composer's music.

[Preston]

[EDIT]- I wanted to clarify- as of present, I believe the better wording is- it is harder for me to respect, instead of not liking. Also, I do enjoy the feelings of some of the modern composer's music.

Also, I felt I needed to mention this. The reason why, is because I do not think I have ever mentioned it and while I realized it, I do not know if it is clear. I started thinking about it after I mentioned respect.

So, let me clarify, as for the respect I have for the modern composers (at least the ones I am familiar with) compared with Beethoven- if there was a scale from 0-100- I put Beethoven at 100 and the modern composers (that I am familiar with) at 0.

I just didn't think I had ever mentioned the respect I have for Beethoven, and it is a Beethoven forum! Though, 100 does not necessarily clarify, in all ways, the respect I have for the great genius. Though, it gives a good idea, , I think.

[Peter]

Also, I felt I needed to mention this. The reason why, is because I do not think I have ever mentioned it and while I realized it, I do not know if it is clear. I started thinking about it after I mentioned respect.

So, let me clarify, as for the respect I have for the modern composers (at least the ones I am familiar with) compared with Beethoven- if there was a scale from 0-100- I put Beethoven at 100 and the modern composers (that I am familiar with) at 0.

I just didn't think I had ever mentioned the respect I have for Beethoven, and it is a Beethoven forum! Though, 100 does not necessarily clarify, in all ways, the respect I have for the great genius. Though, it gives a good idea, , I think.

Yes I think your recognition of the greatness of Beethoven is obviously appreciated on this forum! I think sometimes it is forgotten the forum is primarily for Beethoven lovers and some seem surprised if rather less enthusiasm is expressed for other composers!

[Bonn1827]

Touche, Peter!! I wonder who some of those "surprised" people could be? You speak about Philip's 'waffle', but I have to disagree. I think he generally shows an extremely scholarly insight which many of us just don't get, and perhaps this makes him a little impatient about the rest of us (drones like me)!!!

[Megan]

Touche, Peter!! I wonder who some of those "surprised" people could be? You speak about Philip's 'waffle', but I have to disagree. I think he generally shows an extremely scholarly insight which many of us just don't get, and perhaps this makes him a little impatient about the rest of us (drones like me)!!!

Yes Bonn, I learn from Philip's insights too, but does he have to be such a drama queen ?

[Preston]

I think he generally shows an extremely scholarly insight which many of us just don't get, and perhaps this makes him a little impatient about the rest of us...

Yes, particularly his glorious "open-minded" insights towards his beliefs in Rap music, lol. Oh, I almost forgot, and his great respect for the true masters of art- such as Emin, hehe.

Just messing with you Philip, kind of perhaps, .

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Seriously though, yes, Philip is somewhat studied and I am glad for him. Also, I am appreciative of his help.

[Preston]

Yes I think your recognition of the greatness of Beethoven is obviously appreciated on this forum!

Well, that is good to know, , truly. The reason being is because while I knew the respect I have for Beethoven, I did not know if anyone else really knew it. So I am glad.

Also:

LONG LIVE THE TRUE AND WHOLESOME BEETHOVIANS!

[Sorrano]

My take on this is that modern composers have a much better understanding of the orchestra and what each instrument and choir thereof can offer in terms of sound and expression. While some of the "special" effects may be a bit extreme, others are very effective. One of the appealing aspects of modern music to me are the creative uses of the orchestra.

[Preston]

My take on this is that modern composers have a much better understanding of the orchestra and what each instrument and choir thereof can offer in terms of sound and expression. While some of the "special" effects may be a bit extreme, others are very effective. One of the appealing aspects of modern music to me are the creative uses of the orchestra.

Sorrano, personally, I cannot agree. To say that modern composers have a better understanding of the orchestra than say Beethoven, completely eludes me. Also, what of the creative uses and effects of the masters? The masters and makers that invented the orchestra, made it what it was, had actual understanding of every articulation, placement, form, theory, etc.- dating from the ancient uses of the early instruments that would later turn into fully mastered instruments, for the most part, of the orchestra? Yes, the creative uses can sound interesting- though, they have long been done by the masters- experimentation and effects. Think of Stradivari creating some of the greatest sounding string instruments to this day. They knew all too well the full uses of orchestral effects- they made them.

One of the reasons I respect Beethoven's music so much, is because of his understanding of the orchestra. He knew all too well- how to combine articulations, instruments, form, theory, etc.- for effects. I believe he understood the articulations so well that for instance he could play the quickest little note on the piano and to his ears it would sound like an unimaginable effect instead of a stale and static note, etc. For some reason, I do not hear the same use of the orchestra, for the most part, when concerning the Romantics, which is why I said that Beethoven mastered the Classical style and I feel that he would not have agreed with the form, use of articulation, etc., as much as he did the master's of the past.

One thing, I have been thinking about is Beethoven's deafness and the affect it had on his music. I hate to say this, because it was a terribly sad experience in his life and because it could all too easily sound foolish- but, I think that Beethoven's use of the orchestra may have been completely different had he not gone deaf. I imagine that he knew this, and was very appreciative of the way the orchestra sounded to him, yet, at the same time was torn, tormented, etc.- from his deafness. Similar to, Van Gogh and mental illness- if he had not suffered from psychological problems then his art would have been completely different, he hated the illness, yet at the same time would have had nothing of the genius that he wielded. Anyway, I believe that a key thing that so many immediately mourn about, the fact that Beethoven went deaf- is the very thing that brought out the orchestra in a new light to him. By his hearing disintegrating he heard things in ways we could not begin to imagine, and with his level of genius, he used the orchestra the way it is meant to be used- not statically or stale- but filled with unimaginable feeling and effects.

Anyway, this is what I was talking about as far as the understanding of the use of articulation- the modern composers have a complete lack, imo, of true understanding of articulation when compared with that of the true masters.

Also, in some strange ways- form, theory, articulation, instrumental use, placement, etc., of the orchestra- all tie in together to be the true essence of achieving true and precise orchestral effects.

[Peter]

Touche, Peter!! I wonder who some of those "surprised" people could be? You speak about Philip's 'waffle', but I have to disagree. I think he generally shows an extremely scholarly insight which many of us just don't get, and perhaps this makes him a little impatient about the rest of us (drones like me)!!!

Oh I wasn't mentioning any names Bonn, nor would I suggest that Philip waffles!! Of course I respect his knowledge (and that of many forum members) but in responding to the observation that my replies were concise, I felt it right to point out that it isn't appropiate in a forum to respond with posts that take an hour to read - Philip himself has suggested that books be read in replies to many of the questions posed and I agree.

[Preston]

Also, wanted to mention, IMO, the orchestra is a musical masterwork of the divine powers (whatever they may be)- which, concerning the divine powers- I believe, they are all too present and alive, though, in an extremely mysterious, elusive, and unnoticeable way.

[Cocchini]

Some modern composers who know their way around an orchestral score: William Schuman, Roy Harris and Walter Piston.

[3mmm]

A couple of others: Bela Bartok and Igor Stravinsky, as masterful in writing for large (or small) orchestra as Beethoven Mozart or Haydn. One can say one doesn't like their music as it is modern, some of it not tonal. But the disposition of the music to different instruments for the purpose of articulation of their musical ideas was unparalleled. There is a difference between liking a composers music (or not) and judging their skills in the utilization of the resources of an orchestra.
Don
AS I was writing I thought of a few still living composers who really understand orchestrations (not necessarily all to my taste) Phillip Glass and Steve Reich in the U.S. Arvo Paart, Gorecki, Goliov, Salonen, Robin Holloway, among others elsewhere in the world.

[Peter]

A couple of others: Bela Bartok and Igor Stravinsky, as masterful in writing for large (or small) orchestra as Beethoven Mozart or Haydn. One can say one doesn't like their music as it is modern, some of it not tonal. But the disposition of the music to different instruments for the purpose of articulation of their musical ideas was unparalleled. There is a difference between liking a composers music (or not) and judging their skills in the utilization of the resources of an orchestra.
Don
AS I was writing I thought of a few still living composers who really understand orchestrations (not necessarily all to my taste) Phillip Glass and Steve Reich in the U.S. Arvo Paart, Gorecki, Goliov, Salonen, Robin Holloway, among others elsewhere in the world.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more! Stravinsky was a superb orchestrator - not surprisingly since his teacher was one of the greatest orchestrator, Rimsky-Korsakov. Debussy and Ravel should also be added to the list.

[Sorrano]

Not only that, but instruments have changed since the time of Beethoven and the standard orchestration (if there is any) has changed a lot. Consider Mahler's orchestra compared to Beethoven's. I think that in the last 150 years there has been an expanded emphasis on the various aspects of the orchestra. The special effects that were so lightly touched in those days are exploited almost without reserve today.