of these 3 modern pianos which do you feel is suited best for playing Beethoven...

[Peter]

Not that precise, . Though, you do raise the question- modern vs period. I imagine the modern pianos are more what the composers would have wanted, they are more of a mastered piano, it seems? What do you think?

We had this debate years ago on the forum and my position is that there is nothing wrong in playing the old works on a modern piano - However when it comes to 'what the composer would have wanted' we are in a different area altogether. The fortepiano was not some under developed instrument or else Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven would not have written music for it and we have to remember it was one of the most popular of instruments. There are now many excellent recordings on old instruments that show the instrument was very beautiful indeed, especially in my view the Viennese pianos. Beethoven is of course a problem in that he often expressed dissatisfaction with the fortepiano especially in later years but of course his deafness must have played a part in this.

[Preston]

Thank you Peter. I have not thought as much as I should on the subject.

Though, what comes to my mind is, while is may have not been underdeveloped, I do not believe it was at its full potential?

[Chris]

I have always found the fortepiano rather thin and ugly sounding. Solo piano works or chamber music I much prefer on the modern piano. The only time it works for me is when it mixes with the orchestra. Not in Beethoven's concerti so much, but in Mozart's, yes. I love Malcolm Bilson's period instrument set of the Mozart piano concerti.

[Preston]

I cannot wholly remember the precise sound of the fortepiano (so, I will listen momentarily). Though, what I do remember is it sounds somewhat rigid. Even when you try to play pianissimo there is a sharper sound, than the desired effect, it seems. It seems as though it sounds weak, also.

Not, that the fortepiano does not have good qualities, it became the- piano- one of my favorite instruments. Just that the modern seems so much better- as far as tone, bass, weight, depth, etc.

[Peter]

I have always found the fortepiano rather thin and ugly sounding. Solo piano works or chamber music I much prefer on the modern piano. The only time it works for me is when it mixes with the orchestra. Not in Beethoven's concerti so much, but in Mozart's, yes. I love Malcolm Bilson's period instrument set of the Mozart piano concerti.

I can't agree - Would Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven have written for an 'ugly sounding' instrument? I think this is down to the type of fortepiano used and oiur conditioning to the modern sound. I used to think the same back in the 80's when I first heard a Beethoven sonata played on his Broadwood and this put me off completely. However there is enormous variety in the sounds produced by different instruments and reconditioning compared to reconstruction. I heard Beethoven's 4th concerto played in the Theater an der Wien on a Fortepiano - the effect was tremendous.

[Hofrat]

Peter;

The Beethoven Broadwood was completely refurbished in the early 1990's, so a recording or performance on the Broadwood in the 1980's would "put you off" while a performance or a recording on the same Broadwood after the overhaul would sound "tremendous."

[Preston]

I can't agree - Would Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven have written for an 'ugly sounding' instrument?

That is a good point.

On another note, speaking of the word "ugly" (I prefer unattactive, )- didn't Glen Gould call Beethoven's music ugly?

I think this is down to the type of fortepiano used and oiur conditioning to the modern sound.

Interesting and good point, again! Though, while you are right- in a more general sense, do you not think the fortepiano has been developed into a more masterful piano, and more mastered sound?

[Peter]

Peter;

The Beethoven Broadwood was completely refurbished in the early 1990's, so a recording or performance on the Broadwood in the 1980's would "put you off" while a performance or a recording on the same Broadwood after the overhaul would sound "tremendous."

Yes I'm sure you're right Hofrat and this confirms my point about reconditioning - the recording I heard was of Beethoven's Op.78/1 and it really was terrible, jangly and clunking - was this the first recording made on that instrument?

[Peter]

That is a good point.

On another note, speaking of the word "ugly" (I prefer unattactive, )- didn't Glen Gould call Beethoven's music ugly?

Interesting and good point, again! Though, while you are right- in a more general sense, do you not think the fortepiano has been developed into a more masterful piano, and more mastered sound?

I'm not sure what Gould said - a fine artist, but he was rather strange and some of his own interpretations rather eccentirc shall we say!

The Fortepiano (old instrument) as distinct from the Pianoforte (modern) was by the 1820s pretty well developed, after all it had been around for over 100 years! Clearly the modern instrument allows for more power and was favoured by later composers such as Liszt, although his own performing career would have been mainly on the old wooden framed pianos, as opposed to the iron framed of the modern. All I would say is that it is a different sound (and one the composers of the day wrote for), not necessarily more masterful - the modern piano though is without doubt and instrument of superb beauty and design.

Few can go to the expense of owning all these different instruments so performers should not deny themselves this music (including that of Bach, Handel and Scarlatti) on grounds of authenticity.
We should and do have the opportunity now to hear works performed on both - nobody would advocate playing Prokofiev on an old fortepiano, but we should hear Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven as they intended their music. Chopin as well on an Erard or Pleyel is a wonderful aural experience.

[Chris]

I can't agree - Would Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven have written for an 'ugly sounding' instrument?

Well, it is relative, isn't it? It's what they had, and surely it is better than nothing, and preferable to the harpsichord for writing certain kinds of music. But if they had had a modern piano, would they have ever used a fortepiano from their time? It's all speculation on my part, but I'm guessing no. Their fortepianos had not a single advantage compared to today's pianos except possibly that the different registers had more distinct sounds than the pianos of today, which are much more consistent in their tone throughout the whole range of the instrument. And that could be considered a disadvantage as well. It depends what you are trying to do, though they did make good use of it, particularly in concerti.

I suppose time will tell. Will the fortepiano ever serve a significant purpose in music again aside from allowing us to hear older compositions as their composers did? I doubt it, but we shall see.

[djmomo17]

I've never liked the sound of fortepiano recordings until I heard Paul Badura-Skoda's set on Astree. The Brautigam set is highly praised but it ended up getting on my nerves. The Badura-Skoda set is recorded on 7 different fortepianos, each contemporary to the sonata performed. Also it's a very dry, intimate recording, so it doesn't sound like some antique parlor instrument being played in the middle of Carnegie Hall. On my iPod I keep this set as well as 5 other cycles on modern pianos...

[Preston]

I'm not sure what Gould said - a fine artist, but he was rather strange and some of his own interpretations rather eccentric shall we say!

Gould was eccentric, yes. Though, he was smart if not quite brilliant, imo. He knew about music well, very well. Imo, if Beethoven was 100% eccentric, that makes Gould around 30%, ! I agree Gould could be considered strange, though who isn't? And think of Beethoven, - he was a man of unimaginable strange nature, far more then that of Gould.

In short I quite like Gould. He was a brilliant pianist and a brilliant man, imo. And, he is probably the pianist I like most.

There are interviews all over YT with Gould. Here is one where he speaks about the writing of a fugue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s4TKOaUZ7c