Spiritual Music

[Preston]

I just want to clarify, just in case I was not clear.

IMO, I believe that Beethoven reached a point of spirituality as high as man has ever achieved, though, perhaps I am mistaken.

Either way, I believe that Beethoven, much like Bach, focused on the spiritual and the sacred in his music. Especially starting during his middle period- as far as the sacred. The early period was of deep spirituality to my mind and some of his works may have been sacred during the early period.

I believe that many of Beethoven's works were a direct focus on and to the- sacred. Filled with such sublimity and purity- the sacred.

I will never, at least to my mind now, say that the Missa Solemnis is more sacred than the 9th, etc.

Sacred does not only mean music directed towards "God", it can also be music directed towards things of complete purity and holiness.

Also, imo, to say that sacred music is only music written towards God, for the churches, a particular deity, etc.- is, to defy the very meaning of what is sacred.

[Preston]

Haydn was a deeply religious man - 14 masses, Stabat mater, Salve regina, Litanie, Offertories abd motets, settings of psalms, the seven words of our saviour of the cross and the oratorio 'The Creation' hardly suggest a man with little spirituality! On top of that he signed every autograph 'Laus Deo'.

By no means, am I saying that Haydn was not a deeply religious man, nor am I saying that he was a man with little spirituality. Sorry if I generalized too much.

What I am saying is that, to my mind and understanding, Haydn never tapped into the mystical and sacred world which Beethoven experienced. To my mind, there have only been few who have.

[Megan]

On the subject of spiritual music, may I add this as one of my favourite pieces. Veni, me Sequere Fida.
It is from Vivaldi's Oratoria, Judith Triumphans. Sung by Magdalena Kozena, I love her mezzo soprano vioce.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb1lB...layer_embedded

[Peter]

By no means, am I saying that Haydn was not a deeply religious man, nor am I saying that he was a man with little spirituality. Sorry if I generalized too much.

What I am saying is that, to my mind and understanding, Haydn never tapped into the mystical and sacred world which Beethoven experienced. To my mind, there have only been few who have.

That's fair enough Preston - I would agree that Beethoven reached a level of profundity that few have.

[Tillyvalle]

My favourite piece of spiritual music is Schubert's "Litanei auf das Fest Aller Seelen" preferably sung by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. Not because it's religious (I don't know if Schubert was or wasn't) but because it's beautiful.

[gprengel]

My favourite piece of spiritual music is Schubert's "Litanei auf das Fest Aller Seelen" preferably sung by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. Not because it's religious (I don't know if Schubert was or wasn't) but because it's beautiful.

If think of Schubert's spiritual Music I think firstly of his wonderful Eb-Mass, but even more of his "German Mass", which is an expression of both deepest devotion and simplicity. In times when I was "down" I was singing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pJpZW-xw3o

[Chris]

...but even more of his "German Mass", which is an expression of both deepest devotion and simplicity. In times when I was "down" I was singing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pJpZW-xw3o

Yes - I've played that one at some actual church services.

[Megan]

Originally Posted by Philip
I have played (as 'cellist) Mendelssohn's "Elias" oratorio - it was sheer hard work, and never did the word "spiritual" enter my mind (or my ears) : 2 hours (more!) of sheer string plodding. Nothing in the music reminded me of anything "spiritual", only the words sung by the soloists and choir (which for me might as well have been Tra la la ding dooh dooh in extremis ouw ouw...).


With respect Philip. Is there not a difference between the musical experience of someone listening to it and someone playing music.
You can probably get a certain enjoyable experience playing you favourite music, but isn't that different from listening to your favourite music. ?

In a sense, when you are playing music, you are re-creating that music, from the written notes in front of you into a reality, which is a very creative thing to do. But the way you create that music by playing it, you can't really enjoy it, because you can't really concentrate on the beauty of it, so you are taking pleasure in a sense in a purely technical skill, and really the composer is after the listener and not the player, and its the listener who gets the full effect and interacts emotionally and intellectually with the music.

[Chris]

In a sense, when you are playing music, you are re-creating that music, from the written notes in front of you into a reality, which is a very creative thing to do. But the way you create that music by playing it, you can't really enjoy it, because you can't really concentrate on the beauty of it, so you are taking pleasure in a sense in a purely technical skill, and really the composer is after the listener and not the player, and its the listener who gets the full effect and interacts emotionally and intellectually with the music.

I don't agree. It's certainly a different experience, but I don't find I am any less able to get the full effect and interact intellectually and emotionally with the music while I am playing it as opposed to just listening to it. Quite the opposite, actually. Looking at many of the great musicians while playing, you can clearly tell that they are wrapped up in the music, not just their technical performance of it. Furthermore, composers often composed pieces not just for listening, but for the pleasure of the musician as well - Bach indicated this on the title pages of some of his music.

[Bonn1827]

Absolutely agree, Chris. In a recently documentary about the Berlin Philharmonic's 2009 tour of Asia one of the string players talked about the ecstasy of a perfect performance from a musician's point of view. I was terribly moved by this. But there are other musicians for whom the constant demands of playing can become tedius and music, for them, becomes a job of work. This is particularly so when a conductor has a particular view of the music not shared by the musicians, and also the constant strain of schedules and rehearsals. So, I think this is essentially a complex issue for musicians.

When I was in the Early Music Association years ago I remember a woman there who was a Veterinary Surgeon. She played the Recorder magnificently. When asked why she had never taken it to a professional level her response was, "Oh, I love music far too much for it to ever just become a job!!" An interesting comment, to say the least.

[gprengel]

By no means, am I saying that Haydn was not a deeply religious man, nor am I saying that he was a man with little spirituality. Sorry if I generalized too much.

What I am saying is that, to my mind and understanding, Haydn never tapped into the mystical and sacred world which Beethoven experienced. To my mind, there have only been few who have.

I checked a few pieces from Haydn Masses which have been recommended from some of you (Harmoniemesse and Nelseon Messe) but I cannot say that I am moved in a deeper way. Mozart altogether is on another level for me. Here I don't even have to mention the Requiem or the Great c-minor mass, just listen to the wonderful Mass KV 337 or this incredible early Agnus Dei from KV 139:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4nEy...eature=related

KV337 Credo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXgPbK_i4LQ

[Chris]

I probably should not have mentioned the Harmoniemesse, since you were looking for the spiritual side of Haydn, and I don't think that is really his most spiritual music - I just like it, that's all. Some of his earlier Masses would probably be better in this regard. The Stabat Mater, as well, and, if you want to look at purely instrumental works The Seven Last Words of our Savior on the Cross (though Haydn did eventually arrange a version of this with chorus as well).

Stabat Mater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACvzSn4iAnw

[Preston]

...or this incredible early Agnus Dei from KV 139:

Gerd, I of course admit that Mozart was a child prodigy. Though, to say that KV 139 is a work of depth (if that is what you are saying), is to my mind, kind of ridiculous. I imagine that Mozart was moved by music to a great extent, though, he was only a child at the time. Therefore, I believe that he would not have had any type of true understanding of the word sacred, I doubt that he even really knew what depth really was at age 14.

[Peter]

Gerd, I of course admit that Mozart was a child prodigy. Though, to say that KV 139 is a work of depth (if that is what you are saying), is to my mind, kind of ridiculous. I imagine that Mozart was moved by music to a great extent, though, he was only a child at the time. Therefore, I believe that he would not have had any type of true understanding of the word sacred, I doubt that he even really knew what depth really was at age 14.

I can't agree here Preston - Mozart was no ordinary 14 year old!

[Preston]

I can't agree here Preston - Mozart was no ordinary 14 year old!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about K. 139 Peter, .

I agree Mozart was musically brilliant. Though, I believe he wrote K. 139 at 12 not 14- if it even matters. There is no way, to my mind, that a 12 year old can truly write about the sacred or truly write with depth. The reason why is because both the sacred and depth take experience, learning, struggle in life, etc., etc.

K. 139, imo, is so far from the sacred.