Spiritual Music

[Chris]

Too long? Too short? My students used to ask me "how long does this essay have to be, miss?" (Advanced English students too, BTW!!!). My response is the same as it would be to this issue we are discussing, "How long is a piece of string?"

There are practical considerations in liturgical music, and music that is too complex or lengthy runs the risk of taking the spotlight to itself and distracting from what should be the main focus. In this sense, the Missa Solemnis fails at being good liturgical music. It is great music, indeed great religious music, but it is simply not well-suited to actual liturgical use - which I am sure Beethoven was not particularly concerned with while creating it. The Missa is a most drastic example, but really any any orchestral setting of the Mass can have these problems, along with the additional problem of being too similar in style to secular music, which is what lead Pope Pius X to do away with it. Ironically, shorter and simpler orchestral settings, such as early ones by Mozart, may be much more appropriate for actual use today, since that connotation is not so clear, given modern society's view of "classical" music.

[gprengel]

When you look at examples, such as the slow movement of op. 10, no. 3 you see music of great depth, even at this early period. We focus so much on the later works because of the maturity, but I think many early works are overlooked that not only foreshadow what was to come, but stand in their own right as "spiritual" masterpieces.

I wish I had used another term than "spiritual"! In Germany we say "Geistliche Musik" (Geist = Spirit) and nobody would say here that something like Beethoven's op 10/3 would be "geistliche Musik", no matter how "profound" the music may be. Also Beethoven would never had thought so. And I also would not limit spiritual to liturgic music - "Geistliche Musik" in German language is just music that is distinctly directed to God or tells distinctly from Him. It doesn't need to be performed for Church use.
Can I conclude from your postings (apart from the one from Preston) that for you there is no distinct characteristics of sacred music in itself which I attempted to identify in this thread?

[Peter]

I wish I had used another term than "spiritual"! In Germany we say "Geistliche Musik" (Geist = Spirit) and nobody would say here that something like Beethoven's op 10/3 would be "geistliche Musik", no matter how "profound" the music may be. Also Beethoven would never had thought so. And I also would not limit spiritual to liturgic music - "Geistliche Musik" in German language is just music that is distinctly directed to God or tells distinctly from Him. It doesn't need to be performed for Church use.
Can I conclude from your postings (apart from the one from Preston) that for you there is no distinct characteristics of sacred music in itself which I attempted to identify in this thread?

Thanks for the clarifaction Gerd and yes meanings can be lost in translation. It is a difficult one to identify these differences you refer to - take the Masses of Haydn and Mozart - both were accused of being 'too operatic'.

[Preston]

When you look at examples, such as the slow movement of op. 10, no. 3 you see music of great depth, even at this early period. We focus so much on the later works because of the maturity, but I think many early works are overlooked that not only foreshadow what was to come, but stand in their own right as "spiritual" masterpieces.

I, too, completely agree with this.

[Preston]

I wish I had used another term than "spiritual"! In Germany we say "Geistliche Musik" (Geist = Spirit) and nobody would say here that something like Beethoven's op 10/3 would be "geistliche Musik", no matter how "profound" the music may be. Also Beethoven would never had thought so. And I also would not limit spiritual to liturgic music - "Geistliche Musik" in German language is just music that is distinctly directed to God or tells distinctly from Him. It doesn't need to be performed for Church use.
Can I conclude from your postings (apart from the one from Preston) that for you there is no distinct characteristics of sacred music in itself which I attempted to identify in this thread?

Now I am confused, ? I do not think it matters whether it is a mass, hymn, etc. I believe that with someone like Beethoven, who was surrounded by spirituality for his life, that we will find most of his works pertaining to the pure and sacred. Just because it is not a mass does not mean it is not equally sacred. Is that what you are talking about, Gerd?

[Sorrano]

I wish I had used another term than "spiritual"! In Germany we say "Geistliche Musik" (Geist = Spirit) and nobody would say here that something like Beethoven's op 10/3 would be "geistliche Musik", no matter how "profound" the music may be. Also Beethoven would never had thought so. And I also would not limit spiritual to liturgic music - "Geistliche Musik" in German language is just music that is distinctly directed to God or tells distinctly from Him. It doesn't need to be performed for Church use.
Can I conclude from your postings (apart from the one from Preston) that for you there is no distinct characteristics of sacred music in itself which I attempted to identify in this thread?

Perhaps one could suggest as a definition, at least in part, as something that edifies, that lifts one, noticeably, to a higher level of emotion, or thinking.

[Peter]

I wish I had used another term than "spiritual"! In Germany we say "Geistliche Musik" (Geist = Spirit) and nobody would say here that something like Beethoven's op 10/3 would be "geistliche Musik", no matter how "profound" the music may be. Also Beethoven would never had thought so. And I also would not limit spiritual to liturgic music - "Geistliche Musik" in German language is just music that is distinctly directed to God or tells distinctly from Him. It doesn't need to be performed for Church use.
Can I conclude from your postings (apart from the one from Preston) that for you there is no distinct characteristics of sacred music in itself which I attempted to identify in this thread?

Listening to Bach's organ music, I wonder if this fulfills your definition of spiritual music? I would also be interested in what you regard as the distinct characteristics of "Geistliche Musik"?

[Preston]

Gerd, sorry for any confusion. The reason I said most of Beethoven does focus on the sacred, is because, I believe that Beethoven had a very devout focus on the sacred and the divine, even in his early period. Though, I believe that his middle was more sacred than the early, and his last was the most.

Though, I do not believe that this focus on the divine is the same for every composer. Many other composers came no where near to Beethoven's level of spirituality, nor, it seems, were very serious feelings of spirituality their forte. For instance, when I hear the 2nd Mov. of Dvorak's 9th I find it to be very beautiful and touching, though do not find there to be somekind of mystical divine spirituality. On the other hand, when I listen to the 3rd Mov. of Beethoven's 9th I believe his focus was on the divine, sublime, etc.

So my point is that much of Beethoven's music is a focus on the sacred and divine- because, that is what surrounded him, that was his focus in life, that is what he wanted his music to be (sacred), etc. That is why I said, with Beethoven, his 9th is as sacred as the Missa Solemnis.

Gerd, does that make sense and do you agree with that?

[Preston]

...but stand in their own right as "spiritual" masterpieces.

I may be wrong, though, bear with me while I try to explain. The Moonlight Sonata is a piece that comes to my mind. If you play it for pretty much anyone they immediately recognize it, because of it's unforgettable catchiness. I think that this work has such depth at the same time though. I believe that Beethoven knew perfectly well that he was making a piece that would affect the popular culture 100's of years from when he lived, and who knows if people will ever stop recognizing the tune immediately.

I think this piece has such depth and realism, though, I do not feel the majority hear this. They just hear the tune and that's that, so to say. I believe the Moonlight shows Beethoven's mastery and unimaginable understanding of music. It cannot be hummed like the 9th (which Peter brought to my attention) but there is something about it. Something that has made it withstand the test of time in almost every genre of music.

Anyway, I was wondering what you all thought about that?

Also, another piece that comes to mind that shows Beethoven's spiritual side during his early period is the 2nd. Mov. from his 2nd Symphony. So, calming and quiet, such clarity.

[Hofrat]

My handy dandy dicitionary says as follows:

Spiritual:
1. of, or relating to, or consisting of spirit, incorporeal.
2. Of or relating to sacred matters (~songs).
3. Ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal (lords ~).
4. Spiritually akin or related (~home) (~heir) of or relating to ghosts or similiar supernatural beings.
5. Things of religious nature.
6. A Negro relgious song especially of the southern USA unsually of a deeply emotional character.

How does that relate to Beethoven?

[gprengel]

... when I listen to the 3rd Mov. of Beethoven's 9th I believe his focus was on the divine, sublime, etc.

So my point is that much of Beethoven's music is a focus on the sacred and divine- because, that is what surrounded him, that was his focus in life, that is what he wanted his music to be (sacred), etc. That is why I said, with Beethoven, his 9th is as sacred as the Missa Solemnis.

Gerd, does that make sense and do you agree with that?

Dear Preston,
the Adagio from the 9th symphony is my dearest symphonic movement I know, indeed with the breath of the Divine, but still I would not label it as "spiritual" music, not even the organ Tocatas by Bach. As I said before, from my linguistic background for me spiritual music is worship music, or if you want I could use the term "religious" music instead (eventhough I don't like this term at all). But I don't want to debate on this term anymore...

After presenting the Palestrina piece above I want to present these chorusses from the Dettinger Te Deum from Handel, another favourite example of true worship music for me:

www.gerdprengel.de/Dettingen1.mp3
www.gerdprengel.de/Dettingen2.mp3 (from 1:26 !)

Peter, you asked me what for me are the characteristics of "spiritual" music.
I try for myself to find an answer to this question -that's why I opend this thread... Maybe I would say: "spiritual" music is the musical expression of a human being who is touched or even overwhelmed by the greatness and love of God and who expresses his desire to trust and love Him with all his heart (as expressed in the Handel chorusses above: "Lord , in Thee have I trusted"). So this music usually conveys a mysterious transcendence and special purity which uplifts you from all earthly heaviness and draws you to close God in prayer and worship. Is this not the case with this glorious Dettinger Te Deum and the Palestrina?

Gerd

[Bonn1827]

Hofrat, I have my dictionary too. It is the "Australian Concise Oxford" from my days in television in the 1970s!!

Spirit: (noun) person's mental or moral nature or qualities (eg. "a man of unbending spirit"); animating or vital principle of person or animal; intelligent or immaterial part of person; soul; mental or moral condition or attitude, mood.

Spiritual (adjective): of, or proceeding from God, holy, divine, inspired; having the higher qualities of the mind; concerned with or based on the spirit, (eg. "one's spiritual home").

So, you can see the broad definition and how this might easily apply to Beethoven outside the framework of a strictly liturgical or sacred piece of music. Particularly, "inspired; having the higher qualities of the mind". I think of myself as a spiritual, but not religious, person.

Remember that language is continually evolving and is determined largely by its usage. We tend to think of listening to great music as a "spiritual experience" because it embodies (sorry, bad pun) the moral ideals and inspirations of its creator.

[Preston]

Gerd, I think the primary misunderstanding is that we have different ideals towards spirituality.

To my mind, anything (remotely, to an extent) pure or sacred is meant to be worshiped with all of the heart, mind, and soul.

I do not believe, and do not think you should either, that spiritual music should only be confined to the churches nor only towards worship of a deity. That is just my opinion of course.

There have been many great people throughout history, who did not believe in a particular deity, and have reached points of spirituality so high that it is hard for me, to begin, to imagine.

Also, thank you for the glorious music.

[Hofrat]

I am moved by music. Music is an emotional experience. Music is very individual and therefore everyone is moved differently or has different emotions from different music. If a person is moved spiritually by a certain piece of music, that is his personal feeling. But it does not mean the the composer of that piece of music wrote it spiritually.

[Peter]

Dear Preston,
the Adagio from the 9th symphony is my dearest symphonic movement I know, indeed with the breath of the Divine, but still I would not label it as "spiritual" music, not even the organ Tocatas by Bach. As I said before, from my linguistic background for me spiritual music is worship music, or if you want I could use the term "religious" music instead (eventhough I don't like this term at all). But I don't want to debate on this term anymore...

After presenting the Palestrina piece above I want to present these chorusses from the Dettinger Te Deum from Handel, another favourite example of true worship music for me:

www.gerdprengel.de/Dettingen1.mp3
www.gerdprengel.de/Dettingen2.mp3 (from 1:26 !)

Peter, you asked me what for me are the characteristics of "spiritual" music.
I try for myself to find an answer to this question -that's why I opend this thread... Maybe I would say: "spiritual" music is the musical expression of a human being who is touched or even overwhelmed by the greatness and love of God and who expresses his desire to trust and love Him with all his heart (as expressed in the Handel chorusses above: "Lord , in Thee have I trusted"). So this music usually conveys a mysterious transcendence and special purity which uplifts you from all earthly heaviness and draws you to close God in prayer and worship. Is this not the case with this glorious Dettinger Te Deum and the Palestrina?

Gerd

Yes the examples you cite obviously have the qualities you describe but I still stick with my original answer in that I can find these same qualities in music that isn't obviously 'sacred'. Take for example the movement from Mahler's 3rd symphony 'what love tells me' - it really is an overwhelming spiritual experience to me! I believe all great art brings us closer to the divine - for me that is it's purpose but I accept others have a different take on it, atheists for example!