Spiritual Music

[Bonn1827]

I don't think we can suggest a composer "wrote it spiritually", Hofrat. I'm suggesting that certain qualities in the music lift it beyond the realm of commonplace because, as Peter suggests, it is great art and from composers who were capable of that level of inspiration. I can feel the same looking at great painting which moves me beyond the realm of the everyday world into some other place. The best way I can describe this is to say that it is a "spiritual experience", as per my earlier dictionary definition. This is so subjective a response it is really difficult to argue against, since it isn't objective fact.

[Chris]

There have been many great people throughout history, who did not believe in a particular deity, and have reached points of spirituality so high that it is hard for me, to begin, to imagine.

To what people are you referring?

[gprengel]

To share my view of spritual music I would like to show you the following passage which is an amazing example of transcendence:

www.gerdprengel.de/trancendence.mp3 (Listen between 3:15 - 4:45 !)

Do you know the piece? (here the quiz again ;-)

Furthermore I'd like to show you a tiny example of how Beethoven sketched the "Et incarnatus" for op.123 which first had no sence of spirituality at all. But by changing only one little note the miracle happens! Here a little file with the sketch and then the score version. Do you see the difference?
(I have a faksimile sketch book for the whole Credo).

www.gerdprengel.de/et_incarnatus.mp3

[Bonn1827]

I agree with you and the first sign of its transcendence is, to me, the first "Christe". (The "Ode to Joy" pales into insigniicance when compared with these types of work.) Leonard Bernstein said Beethoven knew exactly the right note to compose next!! This seems a gross oversimplification, but listening to his music you can see what Bernstein meant.

[Preston]

To what people are you referring?

The Deist, who were a group who thought up beautiful philosophies towards theology. Also, some of the free thinkers during The Enlightenment. And of course the early Buddhists. To my understanding when concering a divinity Buddha's beliefs were, it is best not to think of such things.

[Chris]

I meant to what specific people and what specific pieces are you referring?

[Preston]

As for the people, I do not know the specifics. I only know about the beliefs and the movements. Though, you could imagine that there were some very brilliant and good hearted people who participated in the beliefs and movements.

I wish that I knew the specifics, though, my reading skills are to blame for that!

There have been all kinds of movements throughout history that do not focus on a particular deity. I just looked up Agnosticism again, and, on the right side of Wikipedia there are numerous belief systems pertaining to a belief system called "Certainty". The same applies for Deism, Buddhism, etc. For each belief system they list the people behind them and mention some of the writings.

[3mmm]

I'm new and come a bit late to this thread. Besides being new here, I am not an expert on German language semantics, but a crucial element in the discussion had to do with the definition of the word "spiritual" which was the translation used by gprengel for his native German word "Geistliche". I know for example Schutz's Geistliche Chormusik. I understand the word "Geistliche" to be closer in English to "Sacred" rather than spiritual. As has already been hashed over, spiritual can reasonably include secular music.
I would also like to mention that Bach often signed his music SDG - Soli Deo Gloria. (Maybe it was SGD???? I don't recall exactly.) In any event I believe Bach always had God in mind in all of his compositions, secular or sacred. Haydn frequently used a similar signature. Both were very religious men as well as very spiritual men.
Finally, I would offer Arvo Part's Spiegel im spiegel as a profoundly spiritual piece of music which in it's bare simplicity had a very deep appeal to me once when I was very ill with influenza. A different corner of spirituality from the B minor mass or the Missa Solemnis, (two of my very favorite pieces of music), but one from which I felt healing as I listened.
Don

[Peter]

I agree with you and the first sign of its transcendence is, to me, the first "Christe". (The "Ode to Joy" pales into insigniicance when compared with these types of work.) Leonard Bernstein said Beethoven knew exactly the right note to compose next!! This seems a gross oversimplification, but listening to his music you can see what Bernstein meant.

Yes but only after a lot of hard graft! A glance at the sketch books reveals just how much effort was needed to arrive at what seems so natural to us.

[Peter]

I meant to what specific people and what specific pieces are you referring?

There are quite a number of composers to begin with who were either atheists or agnostics. Brahms for example, yet he produced the wonderful German requiem. Faure did not share the views of his Catholic upbringing but wrote the sublime requiem. There are plenty of other examples Chris in all walks of life.

[Peter]

I'm new and come a bit late to this thread. Besides being new here, I am not an expert on German language semantics, but a crucial element in the discussion had to do with the definition of the word "spiritual" which was the translation used by gprengel for his native German word "Geistliche". I know for example Schutz's Geistliche Chormusik. I understand the word "Geistliche" to be closer in English to "Sacred" rather than spiritual. As has already been hashed over, spiritual can reasonably include secular music.
I would also like to mention that Bach often signed his music SDG - Soli Deo Gloria. (Maybe it was SGD???? I don't recall exactly.) In any event I believe Bach always had God in mind in all of his compositions, secular or sacred. Haydn frequently used a similar signature. Both were very religious men as well as very spiritual men.
Finally, I would offer Arvo Part's Spiegel im spiegel as a profoundly spiritual piece of music which in it's bare simplicity had a very deep appeal to me once when I was very ill with influenza. A different corner of spirituality from the B minor mass or the Missa Solemnis, (two of my very favorite pieces of music), but one from which I felt healing as I listened.
Don

Welcome 3mmm and thanks for your personal insights on the issue.

[Peter]

To share my view of spritual music I would like to show you the following passage which is an amazing example of transcendence:

www.gerdprengel.de/trancendence.mp3 (Listen between 3:15 - 4:45 !)

Do you know the piece? (here the quiz again ;-)

Furthermore I'd like to show you a tiny example of how Beethoven sketched the "Et incarnatus" for op.123 which first had no sence of spirituality at all. But by changing only one little note the miracle happens! Here a little file with the sketch and then the score version. Do you see the difference?
(I have a faksimile sketch book for the whole Credo).

www.gerdprengel.de/et_incarnatus.mp3

Yes I hear the change in the Missa and wonderful it is, but something Beethoven did all the time - the sketchbooks reveal these changes and I can't think of an example where Beethoven changed his original ideas for the worse!

What was the first piece Gerd? You're really worrying me with all this music I don't know, and I thought I knew a lot!!

[Chris]

There are quite a number of composers to begin with who were either atheists or agnostics. Brahms for example, yet he produced the wonderful German requiem. Faure did not share the views of his Catholic upbringing but wrote the sublime requiem. There are plenty of other examples Chris in all walks of life.

Yes, but I wanted to know what specific examples lead him to his original comment.

[Preston]

Yes, but I wanted to know what specific examples lead him to his original comment.

I apologize Chris. I should have been clearer in the original comment you refer to.

[gprengel]

What was the first piece Gerd? You're really worrying me with all this music I don't know, and I thought I knew a lot!!

Nobody knows this piece? It is from Beethoven's favourite Requiem - from Cherubinis Requiem in c-minor! Everybody who loves Beethoven should have this one!

And still another great example of what is true worship music - Mendelssohn a giant in Spiritual music:

www.gerdprengel.de/LaudaSion.mp3