Spiritual Music

[gprengel]

Today I was taking a walk through a nearby forest of our home and was listening to the Elias oratorio with my Mp3 player. I was so thrilled by this! And I was wondering:

What is the essence of spiritual music?
In what way does it differ to other music?
Is there a distinct difference at all or is this just my imagination?
Do you listen to spiritual music like any other?
What does it mean to you?

I would like to hear what you think of this and then I would like to discuss some examples of spiritual music from Palestrina till today which may express the essence of spirituality in a special way.

[Peter]

First we have to define what we mean by 'spiritual' - to me it is music that is very profound and sublime - it has a quality that goes beyond mere entertainment and takes us to another place entirely. 'Spiritual' music does not confine itself to music written specifically for religious purposes - it is plentiful in the secular as well. To me virtually every note of Bach is spiritual regardless of it's purpose. I think this is true as well of late Beethoven.

Then we could take a work such as The Magic Flute where much of the music is mere entertainment, almost frivolous such as Papageno's arias, but suddenly we are taken to another world with the music written for the 3 boys or the wonderful O Osis und Osiris.

There are countless examples of course but another that comes immediately to mind is the 2nd movement of Dvorak's 'Cello concerto, simply glorious.

[Bonn1827]

Peter, you've absolutely nailed it!! Not confined to religious settings - yes indeed. That's why I love the "trio" in Cosi so much!!! I think great composers can move us to that realm without us even realizing it.

Gerd also speaks about Palestrina. The "Pope Marcellus Mass", for example, is intrinsically spiritual and is a sacred work. If I remember correctly from my Musicology studies, the Catholic Church was right onto this and ordered that (as a consequence of the Council of Trent) composers needed to pay far more attention to the TEXT in the sacred music because it detracted from these and put too much emphasis on the musical elements!!! (I hope I've got my history right!! Suffice it to say, the Church was sufficiently disturbed to make an edict about music and texts).

I listened last night to BBC 3 and one of its Schumann 200 (my husband watched Rugby Union). They were playing different readings of Dichterliebe and, at times, these moved me into spiritual territory! The SINGERS were able to do this!! A fascinating topic.

[gprengel]

First we have to define what we mean by 'spiritual' - to me it is music that is very profound and sublime - it has a quality that goes beyond mere entertainment and takes us to another place entirely. 'Spiritual' music does not confine itself to music written specifically for religious purposes - it is plentiful in the secular as well. To me virtually every note of Bach is spiritual regardless of it's purpose. I think this is true as well of late Beethoven.

Hi, Peter, certainly the late Beethoven is very profound and sublime, but I still wouldn't call everything of it spiritual music. What I meant here was really sacred music directed to God (like the Missa Solemnis, the "Thanksgiving to the Godhead" in op. 132, or parts of the Finale of the Ninth symphony ("Above the stars there must be a dear Father living"). Wouldn't you say that this kind of music is not just profound and sublime but carries still some other unique and mysterious characteristics?
I don't know about you but for me God is a personal being which is very dear and real to me, and so I am in particular touched by music which is specifically directed to Him.
I love all of Beethoven's music - but the works I just mentioned are special (in their revelation of the Divine).
I love all of Mozart's music - but the Requiem and the Ave Verum(KV 618) are special. The same is true with Handel with the Messiah and the Dettinger TeDeum. Wouldn't you also say so?
In what way do these works differ from other profound works? First I wanted to answer this question by using the expression "transcendence". But this is not it alone. The Trio from Cosi fan Tutte which Bonn1827 refered to also conveys a kind of transcendence but it is not this kind of spirituality I mean - I am talking of music that helps me to get a deeper relationship of God and be moved by His greatness.

[Peter]

Hi, Peter, certainly the late Beethoven is very profound and sublime, but I still wouldn't call everything of it spiritual music. What I meant here was really sacred music directed to God (like the Missa Solemnis, the "Thanksgiving to the Godhead" in op. 132, or parts of the Finale of the Ninth symphony ("Above the stars there must be a dear Father living"). Wouldn't you say that this kind of music is not just profound and sublime but carries still some other unique and mysterious characteristics?
I don't know about you but for me God is a personal being which is very dear and real to me, and so I am in particular touched by music which is specifically directed to Him.
I love all of Beethoven's music - but the works I just mentioned are special (in their revelation of the Divine).
I love all of Mozart's music - but the Requiem and the Ave Verum(KV 618) are special. The same is true with Handel with the Messiah and the Dettinger TeDeum. Wouldn't you also say so?
In what way do these works differ from other profound works? First I wanted to answer this question by using the expression "transcendence". But this is not it alone. The Trio from Cosi fan Tutte which Bonn1827 refered to also conveys a kind of transcendence but it is not this kind of spirituality I mean - I am talking of music that helps me to get a deeper relationship of God and be moved by His greatness.

Well Gerd, I deliberately made a distinction between secular and non-secular because your original question refers to 'spiritual' music which I believe is not confined to the Church and you have yourself cited some non-church examples. Your examples along with all church music are rather obvious in their spirituality in that they are obviously praising God, but I think you can find these qualities in works such as the Bach cello suites for example - the essence of what I am saying is perhaps equivalent to saying that you don't need to be in a church to be close to God but you can find the divine in something as simple as a flower opening. Bach's spirituality permeates all his work - it was in his blood and it doesn't matter whether it's the B minor mass or the C# minor fugue (book 1). That is of course my personal view of it and everyone responds in their own way - it would be interesting to hear some more opinions!

[Preston]

Gerd, I agree with Peter and Bonn. Such as, the 9th is as spiritual as the Missa Somlenis, and so on.

I think that when someone reaches a certain point of spirituality- everything a great musician and thinker would write about would pertain to their spirituality. It is inbred in them and they worship it with all their heart and soul.

Though, Peter, why do you not consider Beethoven's middle period to be filled with spirituality? It seems to my mind that Beethoven was surrounded by spirituality much like you say of Bach.

[Chris]

Well Gerd, I deliberately made a distinction between secular and non-secular because your original question refers to 'spiritual' music which I believe is not confined to the Church and you have yourself cited some non-church examples. Your examples along with all church music are rather obvious in their spirituality in that they are obviously praising God, but I think you can find these qualities in works such as the Bach cello suites for example - the essence of what I am saying is perhaps equivalent to saying that you don't need to be in a church to be close to God but you can find the divine in something as simple as a flower opening.

Well, the term "spiritual" music is a bit odd...certainly non-standard which is what caused the confusion. I think he really meant "religious" music - music that is explicitly religious, the distinction being between liturgical music (music which serves some specific function in the liturgy, such as a setting of the Mass) and non-liturgical music, such as Handel's Messiah or Haydn's Creation.

I think the difference is that in liturgical music, the music is subservient, if you will, to the text it is setting and its specific purpose. If the music is too complex such that you cannot understand the words, it is no good. If it is too long and unnecessarily delays the ceremonies, it is no good. It is somewhat like film music in this regard - it simply has to fit certain parameters. Additionally, liturgical music should be obviously distinct from secular music in style. In this way, the music is understood to be set aside for a sacred purpose.

Non-liturgical religious music allows the composer to be more free, because he is not restricted to those parameters. Thus, this music can resemble secular music more, be as complex as long as the composer wishes, and serve whatever purpose he wants.

Where they are the same, I think, aside from the obvious, is that both should affect the intellect more than the emotions, raising not just the heart, but particularly the mind to spiritual matters.

[Peter]

Gerd, I agree with Peter and Bonn. Such as, the 9th is as spiritual as the Missa Somlenis, and so on.

I think that when someone reaches a certain point of spirituality- everything a great musician and thinker would write about would pertain to their spirituality. It is inbred in them and they worship it with all their heart and soul.

Though, Peter, why do you not consider Beethoven's middle period to be filled with spirituality? It seems to my mind that Beethoven was surrounded by spirituality much like you say of Bach.

Yes Preston you are right, but for me Beethoven achieves his sublimest (most spiritual if you like) work in the late period - incidentally I could ask you why you don't mention the first period?!!

[Preston]

Today I was taking a walk through a nearby forest of our home and was listening to the Elias oratorio with my Mp3 player. I was so thrilled by this! And I was wondering:

What is the essence of spiritual music?
In what way does it differ to other music?
Is there a distinct difference at all or is this just my imagination?
Do you listen to spiritual music like any other?
What does it mean to you?

I would like to hear what you think of this and then I would like to discuss some examples of spiritual music from Palestrina till today which may express the essence of spirituality in a special way.

Well, I thought I would give your questions a shot, ! I like the term "spiritual music", so that is what I will write about.

I believe that a composer's thoughts and beliefs, and most of all their feelings of spirituality is the essence of their spiritual music. It would differ for different composers, based on their individual beliefs towards the sacred and pure.

I believe there is a complete difference between the sacred and pure and the non-sacred and impure. To my mind, it differs because the feelings are completely different as is the focus of the composers writings. Such as today, look at all of the pop-music, it is nonspiritual, and does not focus on divine emotions/feelings. It has a complete lack of spiritual awareness, therefore making it the anti-spiritual. This is a very serious problem, the complete lack of spiritual awareness. So, in that sense, I think that nonspiritual music would be music where the composer had no intentions of writing in the spiritual sense, and therefore, would write about feelings and emotions that do not relate to the spiritual.

I try to focus more on spiritual music. Though, often find myself going back to listen to music that is not spiritual, unfortunately. Primarily, because while I believe strongly in spirituality and focus heavily on it, my feelings lack the spirituality. This is very sad and bothersome to me, just so you know. I hope to achieve feelings of enlightenment and will not give my search up, until I am dead and gone from this earth.

I do not think it is possible to listen to spiritual music like any other. Because, it is a completely different world of feelings.

To me, there are different levels of spirituality. Such as, one composer is more spiritual than another. IMO, Beethoven in his last period reached one of the highest points of spirituality that man has ever achieved.

[Preston]

Yes Preston you are right, but for me Beethoven achieves his sublimest (most spiritual if you like) work in the late period - incidentally I could ask you why you don't mention the first period?!!

Peter, now you are talking, ! If you read my previous post I mentioned Beethoven's last period as one of the highest points of spirituality man has ever achieved. I was hesitant to mention his first period (because I thought that people might disagree and rail), which I do believe he focused on the spiritual and was surrounded by it then, too.

I am glad to see we agree!

[gprengel]

I do not think it is possible to listen to spiritual music like any other. Because, it is a completely different world of feelings.

Yes, Preston, this is what I also sense. In the coming postings I try to give
some examples. I start with what for me is probably the purest and most heavenly music I know which also deeply has touched Beethoven and was the basis for him writing the "Et incarnatus est" from op.123 and op. 132 - Palestrinas Missa which was also mentioned by Bonn1827 (Agnus Dei).
Please close your eyes and breath in these light beams from heaven:

www.gerdprengel.de/AgnusDei.mp3

[Bonn1827]

And isn't this Palestrina also the most exquisite acapella music ever written?

I'm not wholly in agreement with Chris. I don't like the judgmental term "no good" when relating to liturgical (or any other) great music. Yes, the music is made to order, as you suggest, but quantity and quality shouldn't be confused. In the end these are also questions of taste, since much of the music now exists in the extra-church musical firmament. To what extent did these composers realize or care about the role of posterity? Look at Josquin's "L'Homme arme Mass", for example. Built on a secular cantus firmus - bringing music from "de camera" to "de chiesa" - incredibly complex and sophisticated in its musical structure. The church, as I said earlier, had to eventually make an edict about this kind of mass setting so that the text could take primary importance. But wasn't the music itself also representing the glory of God? The "modern" music which pervades Catholic masses these days is just dreadful - guitars in abundance!

Too long? Too short? My students used to ask me "how long does this essay have to be, miss?" (Advanced English students too, BTW!!!). My response is the same as it would be to this issue we are discussing, "How long is a piece of string?"

[Sorrano]

Yes Preston you are right, but for me Beethoven achieves his sublimest (most spiritual if you like) work in the late period - incidentally I could ask you why you don't mention the first period?!!

When you look at examples, such as the slow movement of op. 10, no. 3 you see music of great depth, even at this early period. We focus so much on the later works because of the maturity, but I think many early works are overlooked that not only foreshadow what was to come, but stand in their own right as "spiritual" masterpieces.

[Peter]

When you look at examples, such as the slow movement of op. 10, no. 3 you see music of great depth, even at this early period. We focus so much on the later works because of the maturity, but I think many early works are overlooked that not only foreshadow what was to come, but stand in their own right as "spiritual" masterpieces.

Absolutely Sorrano, I totally agree.

[Bonn1827]

Seconded!!