Beethoven: slow and sustained

[Quijote]

[...] I have a half-formed theory that one's perception of speed in performances is related to the body-clock [...]

I have an even less than half-formed theory that all music is related to physical "time". At one extreme, it is called dance.

[Quijote]

More importantly (and my thanks to Michael for raising this), is that the relationship between music and the "human body" seems most obvious (aural, visual, tactile, taste ([in terms of food metaphors]). The only human sense that seems not to be involved in music is the nasal. Music that "stinks"? Well, I suppose there are examples. Music that is "perfumed"? Idem.

[Quijote]

No, music is movement. Get down on that disco floor with Ludwig now!

[Quijote]

And of course, the relationship between music and "sex" needs little elaboration on my part. As I believe one commentator has pointed out, music "ravishes" you, not the other way round.

[Bonn1827]

Your comment reminds me of the poetry of John Donne - particularly the holy sonnets. In particular, "Batter my Heart". I thoroughly recommend this in light of your comment, but can talk more about this privately as the themes and ideas in Donne's poetry might offend some religious people!! I absolutely love it!!

[Peter]

And of course, the relationship between music and "sex" needs little elaboration on my part. As I believe one commentator has pointed out, music "ravishes" you, not the other way round.

I don't know, I've heard many a ravaged performance! (Just in case gets taken too seriously!). Yes and so often you hear people say classical music is just not sexy, but without wishing to be too crude I think the Liebestod from Tristan is the nearest thing to a musical orgasm and I daresay that's what Wagner had in mind!

[Peter]

My body clock is not (at least I hope not, no offense Michael, ) though, I believe there is quite a different aspect than a body clock when it comes to music, as I am sure most of you do. A mind and soul clock where the feelings are meant to be savored and treasured, where each note should feel like an eternity (so to say), etc. When it comes to feeling I do not like fast feelings- because they are hard for me to savor.

Peter, I know, you know, one of the last things I would ever want is to change one note, one articulation, etc. of Beethoven's music. It is just that I find much more pleasure and peace in sustained feeling. When I said that I change most of Beethoven's work to slower tempi (for my sake) there are still many which I do not change.

I often find myself thinking Beethoven was so filled with the feeling that it must have been a completely different sound world for him than what I hear. I want to feel that sound world he created.

As for where I said each note could feel like an eternity. I am speaking of some form of supra-feeling. I read once where a Dalai Lama stated that, "this world is not supra (which I think is obvious) but that people have tapped into the supra" (I believe Beethoven was one of those individuals), and then he said something about the supra, "each second here on Earth could be like an eternity when speaking of a divinity".

No, I am not saying Beethoven was a divinity, of course. Though, I believe he tapped into some kind of sacred realm and wrote it out in his music.

Hope that makes some sense???

Yes Preston if it works for you then fine, but I still find it puzzling as you are presenting yourself with a distortion of Beethoven's intentions. Personally I can't stand listening to fast pieces played slowly or slow pieces played quickly!

[Preston]

Yes Preston if it works for you then fine, but I still find it puzzling as you are presenting yourself with a distortion of Beethoven's intentions.

Yes I am to a point, and I am not fond of that, ! Though my point is that I am trying to understand Beethoven's mind-frame, understanding, etc. towards music. I would imagine many would say, well start by listening to it the way it is usually performed!!!

Though, I keep finding myself asking myself- how did a musician as great as Beethoven hear the 9th? Was it different from what we hear, seeing as music can be subjective? Did he tap into a sacred realm of feeling (I believe he did)- what would that be like? Etc.

These are questions I am trying to, answer. Hopefully one day I will get there and achieve a better understanding, .

[Peter]

Yes I am to a point, and I am not fond of that, ! Though my point is that I am trying to understand Beethoven's mind-frame, understanding, etc. towards music. I would imagine many would say, well start by listening to it the way it is usually performed!!!

Though, I keep finding myself asking myself- how did a musician as great as Beethoven hear the 9th? Was it different from what we hear, seeing as music can be subjective? Did he tap into a sacred realm of feeling (I believe he did)- what would that be like? Etc.

These are questions I am trying to, answer. Hopefully one day I will get there and achieve a better understanding, .

I think you are on an impossible quest trying to enter the mind of Beethoven but I admire your dedication and attempts to fathom the great man!

[Preston]

I think you are on an impossible quest trying to enter the mind of Beethoven but I admire your dedication and attempts to fathom the great man!

Thank you Peter. Your comment is much appreciated.

I try to take spirituality as serious as I can, though, I am not saying that I am spiritual. When something is sacred I worship it. When a human being achieves a point of mind or state of being so enlightened, that it is similar to some form of Nirvana (if not a form of Nirvana itself) then they have my most sincere and deepest respect- truly. I guess I might as well just say it- I try to live my life as close to, the most serious-minded, Buddhist monks as possible. I do a decent job, but the mind or consciousness has almost no limits. Which makes it challenging for me to achieve the state of being I would like. Though, I will never stop trying to achieve a more enlightened state of mind. I feel that if I keep studying, practicing, meditating, learning, and living a moral life then perhaps a form of enlightenment could come. I believe while I have not achieved mental enlightenment (and I probably never will, it is the tests of time) I have been enlightened somewhat in the sense life's challenges and temptations.

Anyway, I believe in every human being living the most good and moral life they can and not giving into sin and temptation (which seems to me like some kind of rarity when it comes to humanity and human nature).

Sorry for carrying on- just thought I should mention these things because we were talking about very serious issues concerning the mind and supra-natural concepts, .

[Peter]

Thank you Peter. Your comment is much appreciated.

I try to take spirituality as serious as I can, though, I am not saying that I am spiritual. When something is sacred I worship it. When a human being achieves a point of mind or state of being so enlightened, that it is similar to some form of Nirvana (if not a form of Nirvana itself) then they have my most sincere and deepest respect- truly. I guess I might as well just say it- I try to live my life as close to, the most serious-minded, Buddhist monks as possible. I do a decent job, but the mind or consciousness has almost no limits. Which makes it challenging for me to achieve the state of being I would like. Though, I will never stop trying to achieve a more enlightened state of mind. I feel that if I keep studying, practicing, meditating, learning, and living a moral life then perhaps a form of enlightenment could come. I believe while I have not achieved mental enlightenment (and I probably never will, it is the tests of time) I have been enlightened somewhat in the sense life's challenges and temptations.

Anyway, I believe in every human being living the most good and moral life they can and not giving into sin and temptation (which seems to me like some kind of rarity when it comes to humanity and human nature).

Sorry for carrying on- just thought I should mention these things because we were talking about very serious issues concerning the mind and supra-natural concepts, .

You are a very decent person and I wish you well on your journey. However you listen to Beethoven and great music I'm sure you're on the right path to enlightenment! Do you have John Crabbe's book 'Beethoven's empire of the mind'? It is different from other biographies in that it is an attempt to access the inner mind of Beethoven - his spiritual, moral and philosophic thoughts.

[Preston]

You are a very decent person and I wish you well on your journey. However you listen to Beethoven and great music I'm sure you're on the right path to enlightenment! Do you have John Crabbe's book 'Beethoven's empire of the mind'? It is different from other biographies in that it is an attempt to access the inner mind of Beethoven - his spiritual, moral and philosophic thoughts.

Thank you for your reply Peter, and for your understanding. No, unfortunately, it seems, I do not have the Crabbe book. I do like the aspect that it focuses heavily on Beethoven's spiritual beliefs. How does it compare to Beethoven: His Spiritual Development, by Sullivan? When anyone wants to delve into the secret and sacred world of Beethoven's beliefs regarding the sacred or spiritual- I am all ears!

I say secret because I have read several books on Beethoven (even a lot of Thayer's great and large book), and, it seems to me, that while Beethoven was filled the feelings of spirituality, philosophy, etc. he would rarely speak of his beliefs- in great detail. Perhaps, because he was not a pompous and arrogant man, perhaps because he was extremely eccentric, etc. Though, I know he would say things about spirituality often, well maybe not often, just that he would say things but not really elaborate in detail. At least, it seems this way to me. What do you think?

So when someone wants to try and explain his beliefs, I amend them for that, well at least some of them, - the authors who actually take the matter seriously and mean well.

[Peter]

Thank you for your reply Peter, and for your understanding. No, unfortunately, it seems, I do not have the Crabbe book. I do like the aspect that it focuses heavily on Beethoven's spiritual beliefs. How does it compare to Beethoven: His Spiritual Development, by Sullivan? When anyone wants to delve into the secret and sacred world of Beethoven's beliefs regarding the sacred or spiritual- I am all ears!

I say secret because I have read several books on Beethoven (even a lot of Thayer's great and large book), and, it seems to me, that while Beethoven was filled the feelings of spirituality, philosophy, etc. he would rarely speak of his beliefs- in great detail. Perhaps, because he was not a pompous and arrogant man, perhaps because he was extremely eccentric, etc. Though, I know he would say things about spirituality often, well maybe not often, just that he would say things but not really elaborate in detail. At least, it seems this way to me. What do you think?

So when someone wants to try and explain his beliefs, I amend them for that, well at least some of them, - the authors who actually take the matter seriously and mean well.

Well it's a while since I read the Crabbe book and you've inspired me to dig it out and read again - I fortunately have a copy signed by the author. As to the Sullivan book I haven't read that one. Yes I think Beethoven expressed his spiritual views more in private in his Tagebuch and we have a lot of his personal thoughts written down. I think we would describe Beethoven as a Deist who placed God at the heart of everything but without an adherence to any particular dogma.

[Preston]

Well it's a while since I read the Crabbe book and you've inspired me to dig it out and read again - I fortunately have a copy signed by the author. As to the Sullivan book I haven't read that one. Yes I think Beethoven expressed his spiritual views more in private in his Tagebuch and we have a lot of his personal thoughts written down. I think we would describe Beethoven as a Deist who placed God at the heart of everything but without an adherence to any particular dogma.

I have searched for the Crabbe and it seems to be a rarity! Let us know what you think of it, perhaps in the "what are you reading now" thread. I have heard of the Tagebuch, though am not familiar with it. Which is unfortunate seeing as it is the greatest of the conversation books!

I believe Deism is a glorious belief system. Though, I believe, you should not use the term God if you are not referring to a particular dogma. There is no God in the general sense. God is, only, to Christianity and Judaism, to my beliefs. I do not believe in God nor will I refer to what I believe in, as God- by any means. To my mind, God relates to Christianity and Judaism- always- as Allah relates to Islam- always. Some say God and Allah are the same, though, in truth they are not. They each have different writings, teachings, etc.- no matter what the similarities. The same is as Christ is to Christianity and Muhammad is to Islam. There is no but- to my mind. The reason I say there is no "but", is because, so many try to make their own personal beliefs of something already written out- twisting and turning- what is written into something that makes partial sense. Do not believe when there is not proof.

Personally, when it comes to the creators, what I believe is that there, may, be multiple completely pure beings. A completely pure being is the highest form of consciousness possible. Anything not completely pure is not completely sane. The completely pure beings are all that is and all that will be (yes I know Beethoven kept a writing on his desk saying something quite similar, ).

[Peter]

I have searched for the Crabbe and it seems to be a rarity! Let us know what you think of it, perhaps in the "what are you reading now" thread. I have heard of the Tagebuch, though am not familiar with it. Which is unfortunate seeing as it is the greatest of the conversation books!

I believe Deism is a glorious belief system. Though, I believe, you should not use the term God if you are not referring to a particular dogma. There is no God in the general sense. God is, only, to Christianity and Judaism, to my beliefs. I do not believe in God nor will I refer to what I believe in, as God- by any means. To my mind, God relates to Christianity and Judaism- always- as Allah relates to Islam- always. Some say God and Allah are the same, though, in truth they are not. They each have different writings, teachings, etc.- no matter what the similarities. The same is as Christ is to Christianity and Muhammad is to Islam. There is no but- to my mind. The reason I say there is no "but", is because, so many try to make their own personal beliefs of something already written out- twisting and turning- what is written into something that makes partial sense. Do not believe when there is not proof.

Personally, when it comes to the creators, what I believe is that there, may, be multiple completely pure beings. A completely pure being is the highest form of consciousness possible. Anything not completely pure is not completely sane. The completely pure beings are all that is and all that will be (yes I know Beethoven kept a writing on his desk saying something quite similar, ).

Well of course this forum is not really the place to discuss religion unless in reference to Beethoven. Deism was a very popular belief system of the Enlightenment and I think from Beethoven's words and beliefs he probably shared many of its ideas.