Symphony 7 - 'the apothesis of dance'?

[maverick108]

I adore the 7th, and it has long been a vexation to my spirit that so many commentators describe it as the 'apothesis of dance'. This was a description made by Wagner, but unfortunately it has stuck, and is repeated by most authors.

I think to use that description is a travesty!! The symphony is FAR more deeper and profound than that. It seems to summarise the despair and hope occurring in both his personal and public life ( Austrian politics) at the time of writing.

Surely the 2nd movement is the most beautifully melancholic piece of music ever written.

I'm new to this board, and would welcome people's views on this topic

[Rod]

Howdy Doody Mr Maverick. B was particularly proud of the 7th, he was always complementing himself about it in his letters. I agree that the Wagner's quote is a rather short-sighted analysis, but I don't lose any sleep over it. I don't see much despair it the piece though, even the melancholy of the slow movement is not of a consistant nature, it's a more complex situation, certainly the pastoral interludes in the movment aren't so sad. The other movements are full of exuberant and muscular energy which what I would say is, all in all, of a positive nature. So a minor mode contrast is required by default. I don't think it was in Beethoven's nature to wallow in his woes musically.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-01-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by maverick108:
I adore the 7th, and it has long been a vexation to my spirit that so many commentators describe it as the 'apothesis of dance'. Surely the 2nd movement is the most beautifully melancholic piece of music ever written.

I'm new to this board, and would welcome people's views on this topic

Welcome to out merry band of Beethoven fanatics! I agree that Wagner's description is rather simplistic as dance is an inherrent part of music - however worse things have been said - The Symphony's reception in Leipzig was unenthusiastic with critics saying Beethoven must have been drunk, and Weber who really should have known better claiming one passage in particular showed he was ripe for the madhouse!

One reason for the 2nd movement sounding melancholy is that is often played way too slow - Beethoven marked it Allegretto not Adagio, so it shouldn't be played as a funeral march! I don't really feel the mood is of despair - a rare emotion in Beethoven as I think even in his darkest moments, there is always hope. The most despairing piece by anyone I can think of is the last movement of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony and nothing in Beethoven descends to those terrible depths of hopelessness.

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'Man know thyself'

[MCS]

Hello maverick108. It's always nice to meet another Beethovenophile, particularly one who wants to discuss the 7th.

I really love the 7th too, but it doesn't remind me much of dancing (except for one movement which I'll get to in a minute). The first movement is such a perfect work of art! I'm not a composer, but the orchestration seems amazing to me! There is just so much to listen for. But the overall tone to me seems like one of joy, incredible considering the circumstances under which it was written. I, too, find the 2nd movement beautiful. But I wouldn't call it despairing...More like sweet melancholy, IMHO. It's one of my favorite pieces by LvB. The last movement always makes me think of whirling dervishes, and, for me, this is where the dance part comes in.
So I guess I'd agree that the 'apotheosis of the dance' isn't entirely accurate. But then according to my dictionary, an apotheosis is 'a sublime example', and that certainly describes the 7th.
Mary
BTW, I can never hear this symphony without thinking of a remark made by PDG about how it sounds like the orchestra is being inflated at the beginning of the 1st movement. ( ) Where oh where is PDG these days?

[maverick108]

Mary, I agree with what you say, and feel better for knowing the dictionary definition of 'apothesis'. I always assumed it just meant 'a summary'.


I also agree that throughout B's music, there is always ultimately hope, but that certainly doesn't stop him from touching despair and sadness along the way!

If I recall, the 7th was written about 1812, which was a tumultous time both in Europe and B's personal life (unrequitted love, deafness etc). The allegretto movement surely tugs at the heartstrings like no other!!
It was Percy Byshe Shelley who said:

'We seek before and after
We pine for what is not
Our sweetest songs tell of saddest thought'

Could have been talkin bout the 2nd movt!

BTW, my favourite version is the 1970's recording by Carlos Kleiber & the Vienna Phil. What about others?

[MCS]

Originally posted by maverick108:
...
I also agree that throughout B's music, there is always ultimately hope, but that certainly doesn't stop him from touching despair and sadness along the way!

True...But for REAL sadness and despair, how about Opus 130, 5th mmt? It almost makes me want to cry!
I think that's why people get so attached to Beethoven, the person. Listening to his music almost makes it seem like you know him, he puts so much of himself into it.

...BTW, my favourite version is the 1970's recording by Carlos Kleiber & the Vienna Phil. What about others?

I recently purchased the Kleiber version and love it, but I'm still fond of the one I first came to know the 7th by, namely von Karajan's 1963 version. (I don't like the fact that he misses the repeat in the 1st mmt, though.)

Mary

[Op132inaminor]

Hi Folks,
I too am an admirer of the 7th and although attaching programs like "Apotheosis of the Dance" to absolute musicis out of style I have always found some programs fitting for this great music. One commentator feels it describes a "Rustic Wedding" (yes I have heard of Karl Goldmark), another says it reflects revolutionary turmoil of the late 18th century and finally another finds its mood reflects times of chivalry. Although these descriptions come from times when attaching stories to absolute music was accepted and tell us more about the times the comments were written than they do about the music,to me they still add to the enjoyment of this music. Imagine what Disney could do with the 7th? As for performances Kleiber of course, but also Walter CSO(Sony) Monteux(LSO-London Decca) and Toscanini(NY Philharmonic<1936 vintage>) to name just three other great recordings

[Op132inaminor]

CAVEAT EMPTOR
After writing my rather long comments and listing 3 versions of the 7th that I find enjoyable I must add a warning Both Walter and Monteux take the 2nd movement slowly(adgagio) which however beautiful is not as written. As stated by another person in this column it is written allegretto and Szell Cleveland SONY do it to perfection.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

One reason for the 2nd movement sounding melancholy is that is often played way too slow - Beethoven marked it Allegretto not Adagio, so it shouldn't be played as a funeral march!

The true nature of this piece has been a point of debate, especially for me, as you may recall. The evidence is somewhat contradictory. In early reviews I have read of the work in performance, the writers have refered to the movement as 'adagio' or 'andante' but not 'allegretto' - this indicates the manner in which it was directed as compared with contemporary understanding of these tempo indications. Schindler also reports that B acknowledged that the printing of the word 'allegretto ' in the score was an error and that it should have been andante. Coming from Schindler how much credence can we give to this story? Yet it fits in line with the critics descriptions of these first performances. B could compose sombre allegrettos (as in Op10 no2) but they do not posess the march like rhythm of the 7ths 'allegretto', a rhythm one associates with andante. On the other hand the movment suffers from being performed too slow, so that rules out any kind of broad tempo, but we don't want it sounding too trite as could be inferred by allegretto. So perhaps 'andante quasi allegretto' would be a better indicator?

Originally posted by Peter:

I don't really feel the mood is of despair - a rare emotion in Beethoven as I think even in his darkest moments, there is always hope. The most despairing piece by anyone I can think of is the last movement of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony and nothing in Beethoven descends to those terrible depths of hopelessness.

I think only in the appasionata and the moonlight does B end on a note of despondency, yet the power and confidence of these pieces removes the sence of true negativity. Instead, perhaps paradoxically, one feels positively invigorated.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I think only in the appasionata and the moonlight does B end on a note of despondency, yet the power and confidence of these pieces removes the sence of true negativity. Instead, perhaps paradoxically, one feels positively invigorated.

I assume you are referring to the respective 1st movements - the mood with B in these pieces is one of acceptance and reflection rather than hopeless despair. I think the actual ending of the appasionata last movement is defiant not despondent.

With regard to tempo in the 7th I think andante con moto would be a good compromise, as it implies a faster tempo than andante but not the light nature of an allegretto.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I assume you are referring to the respective 1st movements - the mood with B in these pieces is one of acceptance and reflection rather than hopeless despair. I think the actual ending of the appasionata last movement is defiant not despondent.

No, I was referring to the last movments in both cases. I see little sence of 'defiance' in the coda of the appassionata - the essence of the music here ( and in the moonlight) is of something descending, whereas, take the closing bars of op110 for instance, a positive ending involves a sence of ascending. But I think B must have felt extremely confident in himself and of his powers to produce something like the appassionata - it is reflected in the music and the result is not negative per se. There is no wallowing in the gloom here, for the sheer terrifying power of the music in the coda is overwhealming and totally electric.

Originally posted by Peter:

With regard to tempo in the 7th I think andante con moto would be a good compromise, as it implies a faster tempo than andante but not the light nature of an allegretto.

Well, a certain lightness in the texture is required I think....how about 'andante con moto quasi allegretto'!?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2001).]

[pianojones]

Originally posted by Rod:
I don't see much despair it the piece though, even the melancholy of the slow movement is not of a consistant nature, it's a more complex situation, certainly the pastoral interludes in the movment aren't so sad. The other movements are full of exuberant and muscular energy which what I would say is, all in all, of a positive nature. So a minor mode contrast is required by default. I don't think it was in Beethoven's nature to wallow in his woes musically.

[/B]

I agree with your views. The seventh is also my favorite. While I agree that the second movement is deliciously melancholy, hauntingly beautiful, that doesn't mean that it was reflecting anything particular in Beethoven's life experience at the time. A great artist can create any mood he wants, regardless of his personal experience.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, a certain lightness in the texture is required I think....how about 'andante con moto quasi allegretto'!?

That's the exact terminology B uses for the 2nd movement of Razumovsky no.3!

I still think there is a defiant quality in the closing pages of the appasionata. It just seems like another example of B shaking his fists at fate to me!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's the exact terminology B uses for the 2nd movement of Razumovsky no.3!

A similar kind of movement don't you think?

Originally posted by Peter:

I still think there is a defiant quality in the closing pages of the appasionata. It just seems like another example of B shaking his fists at fate to me!

I'm trying my best to avoid the use of picture painting here, but our two different interpretations only proves even with such a rhetorical piece as this, it remains absolute music. The ability to produce art that is at once both subjective on the individual level and yet is universal in its subjective appeal (ie 'absolute') is the ultimate key to the success of that art, and this key is possessed by no-one to a greater extent than Beethoven. It is this key I was referring to when I used to joke about the 'sword of truth', because with Beethoven's music there is a multi-level engagement - between the music, the individual and the totallity of individuals (ie 'universal')...er...if you catch my drift!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by pianojones:
I agree with your views. The seventh is also my favorite. While I agree that the second movement is deliciously melancholy, hauntingly beautiful, that doesn't mean that it was reflecting anything particular in Beethoven's life experience at the time. A great artist can create any mood he wants, regardless of his personal experience.

I agree with your views that agree with my views!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2001).]