How did you come to love Beethoven?

[Roehre]

and the poor soul had probably descended into alcoholism quite some time before

Possible, but not likely.

If this were the case, than we most definitely had records of this, e.g. in the extensive legal documentation regarding Karl's guardianship.

His mother('s lawyers) would definitely have used alcoholism as one of the grounds to get Karl withdrawn from his uncle's guardianship.

But nothing about a drinking habit appears in the lawsuit or court papers - and therefore Beethoven was most likely not a serial "drunkard".

[Hofrat]

Preston;

I am sorry. That should have read:

"Genius of the epoch."

I did not catch the omission.
Sorry once again.

[Bonn1827]

Disagree. I think there's such a thing as a discreet alcoholic - I know some!! My son is a winemaker and some of his friends fit this category. Besides, we are talking about the period towards the end of his life and how old would Karl have been then? I think, given the health problems, drinking was a distinct possibility. Very easy to do!! Loneliness can be one of the first catalysts. Whatever the case, his compositional work did not suffer. As I said, I know alcoholics who hold down good jobs!

[Peter]

Disagree. I think there's such a thing as a discreet alcoholic - I know some!! My son is a winemaker and some of his friends fit this category. Besides, we are talking about the period towards the end of his life and how old would Karl have been then? I think, given the health problems, drinking was a distinct possibility. Very easy to do!! Loneliness can be one of the first catalysts. Whatever the case, his compositional work did not suffer. As I said, I know alcoholics who hold down good jobs!

I think Beethoven over indulged in the last years and he reprimanded himself for doing so! Schindler also complained that during his period of associating with Holz he imbibed rather more than was perhaps good for him. He sounds more like what we would describe as a binge drinker during this period. We also have to remember that everyone drank more then and they would think our health limits of one or two glasses bizarre!

[Bonn1827]

I just don't have a problem with the idea of LvB being alcoholic (as both his parents were)!! It gives his life an added poignancy. He was a "mensch", and I personally don't care what his particular pecadillos were. Some alcoholism is more subtle than others, but the consequences are no less devastating. In a censorious society it may be that somebody has to "reprimand himself for over-indulging in alcohol" but I suspect that in the real world this is NOT how it works.

Some US Presidents have been famous "working" alcoholics!!!

I'm enjoying Pollini playing the "Waldstein" on BBC Radio 3 as I write this.

[UB1]

I first started listening to seriously listening to classical music about 50 years ago. As with many people I started by listening to the symphonies of the 'great' composers including of course Beethoven.

Over the years my interests in classical music has changed and I can not remember the last time I listened to any of his symphonies or piano concertos. However even today his late piano sonatas and string quartets are never far from my cd player.

[Peter]

I just don't have a problem with the idea of LvB being alcoholic (as both his parents were)!! It gives his life an added poignancy. He was a "mensch", and I personally don't care what his particular pecadillos were. Some alcoholism is more subtle than others, but the consequences are no less devastating. In a censorious society it may be that somebody has to "reprimand himself for over-indulging in alcohol" but I suspect that in the real world this is NOT how it works.

Some US Presidents have been famous "working" alcoholics!!!

I'm enjoying Pollini playing the "Waldstein" on BBC Radio 3 as I write this.

Beethoven was concerned that he needed a clear head to work! I too have no issue about Beethoven's drinking but I honestly don't think you can describe Beethoven as an alcoholic which is 'characterized by compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcohol despite its negative effects on the drinker's health and social standing.' Brahms was a far heavier drinker and certainly Tchaikovsky was nearer to the definition of alcoholic.

[Peter]

I first started listening to seriously listening to classical music about 50 years ago. As with many people I started by listening to the symphonies of the 'great' composers including of course Beethoven.

Over the years my interests in classical music has changed and I can not remember the last time I listened to any of his symphonies or piano concertos. However even today his late piano sonatas and string quartets are never far from my cd player.

Welcome to the forum UB1.

[UB1]

Thanks Peter - I am not sure how much you will see of me because most of my time is spent listening to late 20th century and 21st century classical music.

One of the reasons I signed up was because of the thread on 20th century music. It is the first civilized thread on the subject that I have ever seen in 12 years of posting about classical music on many boards.

[Preston]

Preston;

I am sorry. That should have read:

"Genius of the epoch."

I did not catch the omission.
Sorry once again.

Hofrat, no need to be sorry! It was the word epoch I did not understand. I looked it up though, and see it means similar to: "genius of the stars". I think that is the correct meaning.

[Sorrano]

Thanks Peter - I am not sure how much you will see of me because most of my time is spent listening to late 20th century and 21st century classical music.

One of the reasons I signed up was because of the thread on 20th century music. It is the first civilized thread on the subject that I have ever seen in 12 years of posting about classical music on many boards.

You and Roehre should get along fine, then! You should see his listening lists; I am quite envious!

Btw, welcome to the forum!

[Peter]

Thanks Peter - I am not sure how much you will see of me because most of my time is spent listening to late 20th century and 21st century classical music.

One of the reasons I signed up was because of the thread on 20th century music. It is the first civilized thread on the subject that I have ever seen in 12 years of posting about classical music on many boards.

Well I'm glad you've found a civilized place to have these discussions! Actually we're quite an eclectic bunch and topics are not restriced to Beethoven as you can see and we are fortunate in having Roehre and Philip amongst others who have a keen interest in contemporary music.

[Roehre]

I first started listening to seriously listening to classical music about 50 years ago. As with many people I started by listening to the symphonies of the 'great' composers including of course Beethoven.

Over the years my interests in classical music has changed and I can not remember the last time I listened to any of his symphonies or piano concertos. However even today his late piano sonatas and string quartets are never far from my cd player.

For me it's 40 years now, but I certainly do recognize that feeling, UB1.
Just by chance I actually do remember the last time I listened to any of the Beethovenian concertos (WoO 4 in the Brautigam orchestration on BIS, released last year), but I must admit that that is the exception which confirms the rule...
The string quartets however I take with me on winter holidays in Switzerland, together with one or two of the symphonies (chosen from nos. 2, 4, 7 and 8), the Missa solenis and the late sonatas.

[Bonn1827]

"...the drinker's health and social standing"? Well, that certainly wouldn't relate to Beethoven, would it Peter?!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, for I certainly believe the poor man was alcoholic in spite of arguments to the contrary. As I said, it is possible to be alcoholic and have a functional life. Just look at Richard Nixon in the good old USA (he was also a wife-beater). Have a good day!!

[Quijote]

Alcoholic or not alcoholic, what do I care? When he was drunk : he wrote the Battle Symphony. When he wasn't, he wrote the rest.