How did you come to love Beethoven?

[Sorrano]

Sorrano;

Beethoven gave nicknames to only two of his 32 pianoforte sonatas:

"Pathetique" in C-minor opus 13.
"Farewell, Absence, and Reunion" in E-flat major opus 81a.

Pathetique is in reference to the general character of the work. As for the other sonata, Beethoven was referring to the fleeing on his patron (and part time pupil) Archduke Rudolph from Vienna.

I was being cheeky on that comment. I definitely consider Beethoven to be a consummate Classicist.

[Tillyvalle]

I was watching a docu-drama called The Genius of Beethoven presented by Charles Hazlewood and he said that Beethoven called Sonata no 14 'Quasi una Fantasia' (in the manner of a Fantasia) I rather like that.

[Peter]

I was watching a docu-drama called The Genius of Beethoven presented by Charles Hazlewood and he said that Beethoven called Sonata no 14 'Quasi una Fantasia' (in the manner of a Fantasia) I rather like that.

Yes it was a title applied to both Op.27 sonatas and both are rather improvisatory with a clear departure from the traditional sonata in the first movements which are not in sonata form.

[Tony John Hearne]

38 years ago I was 22 and totally hooked on rock music Thinking that I might be missing something I borrowed three LP's from the local record library ( Haydn Farewell Symphony; Vaughan Williams sixth and LVB seven) There was no turning back...

[Roehre]

Yes it was a title applied to both Op.27 sonatas and both are rather improvisatory with a clear departure from the traditional sonata in the first movements which are not in sonata form.

And the "Moonlight"'s sister work opus 27/1 is the one sonata of Beethoven's which is de facto a single movement sonata, and therefore really a fantasy, certainly in the ears of the then public (and possibly one of the ways Beethoven may have improvised and temporized himself - the only piece of which we know quite sure it IS a written-out phantasy is opus 77 btw)

[terry]

HERE I AM AT LAST! I've never lost you (some of you don't know me either) but I lost my password and I didn't understand how to login again, I wrote mails to administrator, don't know what happened...
A BASIC QUESTION TO ADM: IF I DON'T JOIN THE FORUM FOR SOME TIME YOU DELETE MY PASSWORD? It's the second time it happens and I can't login again!

As for the topic I first heard B's fifth in the ... (horror!) SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER soundtrack, I didn't know whatever it is (I was 13 and followed discomusic...) and another one: JAMES LAST playing the Romance op. 40 (or. 50). When I discovered the original at the age of 23, I disliked these ugly modern performance...

[Sorrano]

Welcome back, Terry!

[Chris]

I wrote mails to administrator, don't know what happened...

I didn't get any e-mails from you.

A BASIC QUESTION TO ADM: IF I DON'T JOIN THE FORUM FOR SOME TIME YOU DELETE MY PASSWORD? It's the second time it happens and I can't login again!

No, it will never change your password. If you can't remember it, or it isn't working, the forum can e-mail it to you. Or you can ask, and I will reset it for you.

[Bonn1827]

I'm re-reading Rosen on Beethoven at the moment (it's tough going) and came across this:

"At the end of his life Beethoven was most decidedly out of fashion" (in Vienna) p. 379. Rosen claims that musical fashion had turned away from Beethoven, though he was universally acknowledged, at the time, as the greatest living composer. He also claims that musical history turned away from Beethoven and that for ensuing generations of composers Beethoven was hardly a vital force.

But what about Brahms and his "standing on the shoulders of giants"?

What do bloggers think of Rosen's comments?

[Roehre]

I'm re-reading Rosen on Beethoven at the moment (it's tough going) and came across this:

"At the end of his life Beethoven was most decidedly out of fashion" (in Vienna) p. 379. Rosen claims that musical fashion had turned away from Beethoven, though he was universally acknowledged, at the time, as the greatest living composer. He also claims that musical history turned away from Beethoven and that for ensuing generations of composers Beethoven was hardly a vital force.

But what about Brahms and his "standing on the shoulders of giants"?

What do bloggers think of Rosen's comments?

Rosen is right.

Beethoven was for the general public out of fashion in Vienna at the time of his death:
-B's popularity in vienna was by then more based on the eccentricities of the composer and the fact he was deaf than on his music
-Rossini e.g. was as composer much more popular (a fact B moaned about, and which is e.g. illustrated by the "attraction" of arias of Rossini's played at the concerts in which the 9th was played in May 1824)
-rarely new works of his were heard, the Ninth symphony almost the one exception - and a great succes! The chamber works were more or less premiered in private performances.
-his "late" style was sometimes considered the music of a mad man (CM von Weber ridiculed and derided the 7th symphony already in that kind of terms)


This was definitely NOT the case for many (though not all) the musicians, especially the composers around him
-Berlioz adored B's music (without B no Fatastique [1830]).
-Mendelssohn's string quartet opus 12 (1829) shows in depth knwoledge of B's late string quartets (especially 127 and 132)
-Wagner as late teenager copied the symphonies in full score himself, for study reasons, but certainly as veneration too (1830/'31)
-Schubert quoting Beethoven's 9th in his own 9th (1825)

By the time Brahms' appeared on the composers' stage, Beethoven was already the towering giant, but the first decades after his death many lesser composers or ones which didn't work in his immediate surroundings were far less -if at all: Chopin !- influenced .
And: composers like Schumann and Mendelssohn were themselves very influential in those years and the following decade, regarded as other giants (with for Brahms to some extent Schubert) with whom one had to reckon.

An excellent book on this theme is Alessandra Comini's The changing image of Beethoven. A study in mythmaking. (1987, well documented and excellently illustrated , and accordingly expensive )

[Bonn1827]

Thanks, Roehre. I knew Berlioz was a huge admirer - in fact, I think Berlioz actually believed he was carrying on Beethoven's work. I was just concerned that Rosen was making a generalisation about LvB's popularity. I'll get a hold of that book you mentioned. In any case, what is "popularity" anyway, and how important is it for a serious composer? One can easily see how popularity sits with Strauss family!! But the music is confectionary.

I was aware of CM von Weber's criticism and this is all the more puzzling given that Beethoven was a deaf man and should have deserved the benefit of the doubt, i.e. empathy, from Weber. One senses an attitude of schadenfreude here - what else can it be?

[Peter]

Thanks, Roehre. I knew Berlioz was a huge admirer - in fact, I think Berlioz actually believed he was carrying on Beethoven's work. I was just concerned that Rosen was making a generalisation about LvB's popularity. I'll get a hold of that book you mentioned. In any case, what is "popularity" anyway, and how important is it for a serious composer? One can easily see how popularity sits with Strauss family!! But the music is confectionary.

I was aware of CM von Weber's criticism and this is all the more puzzling given that Beethoven was a deaf man and should have deserved the benefit of the doubt, i.e. empathy, from Weber. One senses an attitude of schadenfreude here - what else can it be?

Beethoven was respected and admired (as witnessed by the large numbers at his funeral) but the music wasn't popular in the sense of Italian opera which was the craze. I don't think anyone likes to be unpopular (except some of today's composers who revel in it!) and it did irritate Beethoven that a composer such as Rossini was more popular! I think there is more to the music of Johann Strauss than you are giving credit for - its endurance is just one factor, let alone the respect it earned from many serious composers of the time such as Brahms - his famous remark on an autograph of his 'alas, not by Johann Strauss' reflects his admiration for qualities such as melodic inventiveness and sparkling orchestration.

[Bonn1827]

I think we have to disagree on this one, as discussed once before. I think Strauss quite melodic, yes, but sickly sweet and those endless 3/4 time signatures just keep going around and around and around. The orchestrations are quite good, but that unyielding rhythm. I enjoy hearing the Vienna Phil playing it once a year for the Neujahre Konzert but that's about it. Brahms' beautiful, BUT BRIEF, parody waltz in the 3rd symphony is far far better, IMO.

[Peter]

I think we have to disagree on this one, as discussed once before. I think Strauss quite melodic, yes, but sickly sweet and those endless 3/4 time signatures just keep going around and around and around. The orchestrations are quite good, but that unyielding rhythm. I enjoy hearing the Vienna Phil playing it once a year for the Neujahre Konzert but that's about it. Brahms' beautiful, BUT BRIEF, parody waltz in the 3rd symphony is far far better, IMO.

Well we don't totally disagree, I can have too much of it as well and small doses are quite enough. My personal favourite waltz composer was the other Strauss, Richard with the wonderful Rosenkavalier suites.

[Bonn1827]

I was talking with an acquaintance on Wednesday at the hairdresser about our going to stay in Vienna next year because of my love for music. She's a singer herself, and said, "Don't you just love it there - that wonderful music of Strauss. There are hundreds of them in that family!!!! Don't tell me you can't find one of them to like!". I thought for a moment and said, "Yes, Richard Strauss - the one who died in 1948". She looked at me askance and said, "Huh? I didn't know there were any who died that recently". She's probably a fan of Andre Rieu too.