Beethoven's "Orpheus" concerto : Op. 58

[Bonn1827]

("Ephemera" is a collective noun and therefore treated in the singular).
Your thread (collective?) is so far very interesting. Is there any other evidence of the programmatic nature of Concerto No. 4 apart from Jander's hypothesis - i.e. contemporaries who had discussions with LvB, for example? I would want further evidence of this before being convinced.

Also, for musical instruments emulating animals go no further than Biber!! In "Battallia" you hear muscats being fired, and lots more.

[Quijote]

Good point. I can only offer tangential sources : Czerny, Liszt, Fanny Mendelssohn and A.B. Marx. But please allow me to develop Jander's thesis, as it will take into account what they had to say. Sorry if I'm a bit slow about all this. I have other work to do, plus a family to look after!

[Quijote]

It has just occured to me that in launching this thread I am giving myself a lot of work in summarising its posit. Why should I bother? If you don't particularly wish to buy your own copy, I'm sure your local library can get it for you for loan.
I place this thread "in suspension" until others wish to debate it after reading Owen Jander's thesis for themselves.

[Bonn1827]

Regarding that "textless instrumental dialogue" (so-called "fashion") to which you earlier referred, Philip, would that be the "recitativo" sections of, as just two examples, LvB's penultimate sonata (I think it was) and also "Les Adieux". I don't think this idea of yours exclusively refers to programmatic music per se, do you? So, I'm not sure how this idea relates to your support for Jander's thesis. I won't have time to read the book, BTW, because I'm still reading the Cambridge Companion to "Missa Solemnis" and "Late Beethoven: Music, Thought, Imagination". I'm a slow reader (and learner?)

[Quijote]

Thanks Bonn for your posting. No offence, but I'm placing this thread "in suspension" (as far as I'm concerned, that is) until others make the effort to read the book. It needn't be costly, if one chooses to use local library facilities/services.
I'm not being grumpy, I'm simply convinced that a serious Beethoven Reference Site implies serious reading/listening around the subject. I know very well that you at least (and certain others) will get round to Jander after you've finished the Cambridge Companion's "Missa" and Solomon's "Late Beethoven" books. We'll talk later and in depth, OK?

[Quijote]

Actually, I am being a little grumpy because I am reminded of a posting by another forum member who prefers to read summaries than read the article/essay/book for himself. I am not prepared to put in all the work summarising something that is readily available. Is reading so difficult?

[Quijote]

Talking of the Solomon "Late Beethoven ..." tome: he has an interesting angle on "Greek diction" patterns to illustrate rhythmic features in Beethoven's Seventh Symphony. Have you read that? Any comments? Would you post a new thread about it when you have?

[Bonn1827]

No, I haven't read that yet - I've been "selectively" reading the chapters, not necessarily in the order of the book. Also, trying to read the "Missa". And learning Deutsch. Does it sound like I've got ADHD? Perhaps a tic? But seriously, I'd love to read these books and discuss them with you - nothing, apart from the music itself, would give me greater pleasure!! But I think I've already made some though-provoking comments which you are DODGING!! (These are my own views, BTW, not extrapolated from some internet site).