Beethoven's "Orpheus" concerto : Op. 58

[Bonn1827]

It nearly makes me cry to think LvB didn't get to HEAR this music as we can today; thanks to musicological research and transcriptions, and performances onto CDs from such groups as the Hilliard Ensemble, Hesperion XX1 etc.
We must never take for granted how lucky we are to be able to be transported back to 12th and 13th century Notre Dame, just to name one "school".

[Quijote]

I don’t know about Orpheus as an inspiration but the entire 1st movement is distinct from the other concertos in that the piano seems a great deal to be engaged in embroidery and rather less in thematic material. This movement seems to live in a dream world of near unmeasured melismatic cascades and tumbling arpeggios and chromatic scales. Beethoven loves to interrupt measured music with the flourish (Choral Fantasy) but here it is omnipresent. In all the other concertos Beethoven ends the 2nd exposition with an intense and difficult bravura solo section driving toward the orchestral close, but in this concerto he uses a less intense but distinctive solo, using new material, followed by yet another bravura cadenza-like passage, the real climax, culminating in the effect-of-the-movement, the double trill; which I believe is introduced here for the first time. He does the double trill again in the same place in he recapitulation as the grand finger breaking, eye-popping climax. So, the measured bravura passage is replaced by the measured and unmeasured cadenza. Now, interestingly, this is ‘real’ uncompromisingly idiomatic piano music. He uses the keyboard and both hands to do what no other instrument can do, except maybe a harp – hand-fulls of tumbling notes like sparks from a stirred campfire. The climax is like a powerful dream moment that is ultimately taken over by the reality of the orchestra – time to wake up and get back to the work of the composition. The piano is the undisciplined dreamer. Maybe that’s it? The contrast is the dream world and the conscious world and the half-awakened places in-between.

If I am not mistaken, the trumpets and drums are not used in the first movement. There is that sense that the first movement is not really a hard-bitten allegro. Sublime music uses no trumpets and drums.

Perceptive comments, Sludlinger (dig the name, by the way). Your idea of "embroidery" in the piano part maps nicely onto the Orpheus idea developed in Jander's thesis, that of Orpheus's chosen instrument, the harp. More needs to be said about this with specific examples, and I will be doing this shortly. I do apologize for my tardiness in getting to the "nitty-gritty" of my posted thread. The unusual harmonies, textures and instrumentation also require closer examination in light of the book that prompted this topic.

[Quijote]

[...] Oh, absolutely. I don't hold any stock in those fanciful appropriations of mythology. I don't know if it was E T A Hoffmann, Franz Liszt or E M Forster who latched onto the Orpheus scenario but we are saddled with it since. The movement can be enjoyed in a totally musical way without all this baggage.

Indeed. It is a Piano Concerto, and even Beethoven (via Czerny) was aware that less sensitive listeners might be "fettered in their enjoyment" of his work(s) if they became aware of any extra-musical connotations. Until I read Owen Jander's thesis, I always enjoyed this concerto for its "abstact" (or formal, if you prefer) qualities, but found it "odd" : there was something that didn't add up (very unusual and unexpected harmonies, structure, instrumentation, piano idiom and so on); now, I feel, I have a better understanding of this work. Whatever the "programme" (if indeed there is one; we shall discuss this later), of course it can be enjoyed (better : "experienced") in a totally musical way. I don't know how music functions otherwise, do you?

[Sludlinger]

The name? Sludlinger is an old joke, a parody of rural western America - not to be irreverent.

This concerto has intrigued me for years and this discussion has motivated me to study the score. The last movement is a really a wonder. If you want to know why his music intrigues us so, look at this movement. The amount of intellectual energy here is simply enormous. Not just the usual stuff; orchestration, part writing, technique; but look at the long-term harmonic architecture. Once again, Beethoven makes a bold move, as only he can – and make it work! The piece is not really in G major, it’s in C. In actuality, this is really a piece that begins in C, largely stays centered in C, though it wanders all over the place, and ends in G. This business about starting in the wrong key, as it is often stated, sort of suggests he quickly gets into the right key, but that’s not the case. In fact, this piece is not firmly established as G major until very near the end of the movement at the end of the final orchestral tutti and the beginning of the coda. (I have no measure numbers in my score). Until this point the movement is really in C with a strong tenancy to go to G (sort of) and then back to C. Notice that there are no full cadences. Things move from idea to idea, often we never really know exactly where we are. The opening tutti starts in C, floats to G twice and back to C, then goes to G again and then E minor, and from there, by establishing a quick dominant 7th, to the codetta in A major, whereupon the episode modulates by falling 5ths down to C by way of a huge G 7 pedal. And then we repeat the rondo exposition again, and so on. The horns are in G but trumpets are in C – very telling. The tympani are in G and C, not G and D. Ha! This is great stuff. What a mind!

I’m just getting started. I think the whole piece is about the note B natural. More later.

[Bonn1827]

What a mind, indeed!!! I enjoyed your analysis, Sludlinger. I pose this question: do you think reading the score for analysis heightens the enjoyment and response to a work? What I'm really asking is: Can you imagine a listener getting the same response to a work as someone who has access to the language of music for analytical purposes? Personally, I've always found looking at the text to be hugely advantageous in getting to an understanding, which then enhances the experience.

[Sludlinger]

I must admist that I can not hear these things without the score. I do not have perfect pitch and do not hear modulations precisely, but I know when I'm bored. When I'm not I look under the hood and find out why. This is a case in point.

[Quijote]

To continue then, with the alleged “Orphic” connections in this concerto. The Orpheus legend you all probably know, the most famous part of the story involving Orpheus “charming” the “Furies” to gain access to Hades to bring back his wife Eurydice. In case you don’t know the legend, I downloaded from the Internet this synopsis for you :

“Orpheus (Greek: Ορφεύς) was considered one of the chief poets and musicians of antiquity, and is still a symbol of the art of music. By dint of his music and singing, he could charm the wild beasts, coax the trees and rocks into dance, even arrest the course of rivers.

The best known Orpheus myth is about his love of Eurydice, described in several musical masterpieces. When Orpheus' wife, Eurydice, was killed he went to the underworld to bring her back. Fascinated by the beauty of his music the god of the underworld allowed Eurydice to return to the world of the living. Although warned against looking back, he did so anyway and lost his beloved wife once again.

He lost interest in women after that event, but they did not lose interest in him. Thus, a group of angry women attacked him with their bare hands, and tore him to pieces. Orpheus' head floated down the river, still singing, and came to rest on the isle of Lesbos […].”

Time now for me to turn to the details of Jander’s thesis.

[Hofrat]

"He [Orpheus] could charm the wild beasts...." is what Beethoven does with the music. If we return to the 2nd movement of the 4th concerto, the beast is the orchestra and Orpheus is the pianist. I am sure that you noticed that the pianist never plays louder than a whisper. Meanwhile, the orchestra roars with strong tutti passages that slowly and gradually diminsih to a whisper. In other words, the beast was subdued by Orpheus. Of course this is all "spin" because Beethoven did not programize the concerto.

[Bonn1827]

It's interesting to make a case about extra-musical (programmatic) ideas in music but that's all it is: interesting. The Orpheus myth is most beautifully idealized in Monteverdi's masterpiece "L'Orfeo", which is alleged to be the "first" opera - and what a magnificent piece it is too. Delicate, transparent orchestration and wonderful melodies. I adore this composer! And now I'm delving into JS Bach and some of his cantatas, having almost forgotten that the baroque has historically been my favourite musical period - at least, since these discussions on LvB.

[Michael]

I must admist that I can not hear these things without the score. I do not have perfect pitch and do not hear modulations precisely, but I know when I'm bored. When I'm not I look under the hood and find out why. This is a case in point.

Great analogy! I like to look under the hood as well but I'm afraid that my investigations are confined to checking the oil and water. Thankfully, there are a lot of fine mechanics in this forum.

[PDG]

Thus, a group of angry women attacked him with their bare hands, and tore him to pieces. Orpheus' head floated down the river, still singing, and came to rest on the isle of Lesbos.

That's the trouble with women. You try and be nice to them and they end up tearing your head off and kicking it into the river. It's happened to me more than once.....

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Philip
Thus, a group of angry women attacked him with their bare hands, and tore him to pieces. Orpheus' head floated down the river, still singing, and came to rest on the isle of Lesbos.

That's the trouble with women. You try and be nice to them and they end up tearing your head off and kicking it into the river. It's happened to me more than once.....

So how are they all in Lesbos, PDG?

[Bonn1827]

I can answer that for you, Michael. Floating down the third-world river Styx under a raft of debt, destined for irrelevance.

[Quijote]

Patience, children, patience. All will be revealed shortly.

[Quijote]

The "aperggio" markings in the score, what do they mean?