Composition Quiz

[Roehre]

I slept in so i missed the quiz. I would have indentified the Saint-Saens completely (it is one of my favorites). I could identify the Haydn, but would not have knowed the number.

Has anyone noticed that the opus number of the Saint-Saens concerto has the same opus as thaat of Beethoven's concerto? And what more, Saint-Saens' is in B-minor which has the same key signature as Beethoven's in D-major. Am I the only one who sees things like that?

And have you noticed the Elgar violin concerto, opus 61 and in b-minor as well? Szymanowski's 2nd violin concerto is opus 61 too, btw.

I don't think that Reger's Romances for violin and orchestra were numbered opus 50 without any reference to Beethoven's opus 50 either.

Short: No, Hofrat, you are not the only one who has got some special sense for this type of coincidences.

[Roehre]

I could identify the Haydn, but would not have known the number.

I didn't know which symphony immediately either, but it had got to be one of the Sturm und Drang period, which means one of the symphonies 26 (Lamentazione), 44 (Trauer), 47, 48 (Maria Teresia) or 49 (La Passione), all composed around 1769-1770.

Do you know the Saint-Saens symphonies aside from the well known 3rd? There is some lovely music in the early ones.

There is great music in those other 4 symphonies. (Four other? Yes: Though the "Organ-symphony" is called no.3, it actually is symphony no.5.)

The first one, unnumbered, in A, without an opus number, dates from 1850 as Saint Saens was 15.

The second is "Symfonie nr.1" in E-flat opus 2, from 1853.

The third is in F , unnumbered, but nicknamed "Urbs Roma", no opus number, from 1856.

The fourth is "Symphony no.2" in a opus 55 (1859)

the fifth is "Symphony no.3" in c, the "Organ" , opus 78 (1886), originally intended to be dedicated to Liszt, but as Liszt died before this could be done, it eventually was dedicated to the memory of this composer.

[gprengel]

Do you know the Saint-Saens symphonies aside from the well known 3rd? There is some lovely music in the early ones.

I never understood why the 3rd is so famous. I don't like this one at all - much noise without any dephts. I will checkout No 1 and 2, which I don't know yet...

Gerd

[Bonn1827]

Thank you, Hofrat, for enlightening me about the violin divisions in the LvB concerto. I suspected as much, but just wasn't sure. I suppose I should get a life instead of concerning myself with these things!!!

Agree, Gerd, that the Saint-Saens 3rd "Organ" symphony isn't his best - probably also because that dreadful pop song was derived from it in the 70's. His opera "Samson and Delilah" is a beautiful work, however. But I've never really gone for the piano concertos - too florid and fussy for my tastes: not enough "gravitas". I think he was a good composer though.

[Hofrat]

I have two 3-CD sets of Saint-Saens' works:

1. His 5 piano concerti.
2. His orchestral music which includes violin concerti 1 and 3, symphonies 1 and 3, 2nd cello concerto, and various shorter pieces.

And CD with 2 piano trios. Excellent music!

[gprengel]

I have two 3-CD sets of Saint-Saens' works:

1. His 5 piano concerti....

Too bad, I just wanted to bring in the 5th concerto for the quiz, because it is one of the very best piano concertos ever!!! Too bad now, when you have it you probably would recognise it right away ;-) So I present it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUO7awAH31A starting at 1:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrJ0R...eature=related
( irrisistable - especially at 6:22 !!!)

Who know this concerto? Share your impressions!!!
Gerd

[Roehre]

Too bad, I just wanted to bring in the 5th concerto for the quiz, because it is one of the very best piano concertos ever!!! Too bad now, when you have it you probably would recognise it right away ;-) So I present it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUO7awAH31A starting at 1:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrJ0R...eature=related
( irrisistable - especially at 6:22 !!!)

Who know this concerto? Share your impressions!!!
Gerd

The impressions Saint Saens underwent during his travels found their ways into his compositions. This 5th concerto is not by chance called the Egyptian, the 3rd is definitely impressed by Switzerland, the 2nd by sea scapes.

The last movement of the 3rd violin concerto encloses a fragment of impressions from Algeria, as it quotes nearly literally a movement from the Algerian suite opus 60 (of which the best known part is the Marche militaire francaise).

Btw, both the first violin and the first piano concertos are unthinkable without Mendelssohn's first piano concerto (g-minor opus 25, particularly the fanfares which open the finale), in terms of architecture and how to handle fanfares as musical themes.

I think Saint Saens' nickname as "the French Beethoven" is an exaggeration, but many aspects of 3 of his 5 symphonies and more especially his later works (e.g. the piano quartet, the 2 string quartets, the late sonatas for one wind instrument with piano) actually do justify it as well IMO.

[Hofrat]

Saint-Saens' 5th piano concerto is a gem. I personally like the 4th better. As they say, different strokes for different folks.

I dislike references like "Saint-Saens isthe French Beethoven." I would not call Beethoven "the Austrian Saint-Saens." I never knew why many musicologist do this.

[gprengel]

Saint-Saens' 5th piano concerto is a gem. I personally like the 4th better. As they say, differt strokes for different folks.

I didn't know the 4th so far. I listened to it now at YouTube. Well, I think the 1st mov. is rather boring, but, whow, the second is just awesome!! What a fantastic theme at 2:45:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlDC0...eature=related

Thank you, Hofrat for revealing this gem to us!!

Gerd

[Hofrat]

Yes, Gerd, it is a great theme. It makes up for the slow parts.

[Roehre]

I didn't know the 4th so far. I listened to it now at YouTube. Well, I think the 1st mov. is rather boring, but, whow, the second is just awesome!! What a fantastic theme at 2:45:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlDC0...eature=related

Thank you, Hofrat for revealing this gem to us!!

Gerd

This theme is another example of Saint Saens being influenced by themes he must have heard on his travels: this is a Celtic/Scottish one. It is used by Charles Villiers Stanford as well in his 5th Symphony "L'Allegro ed il Penseroso" (in D opus 56), at the beginning of the finale

I dislike references like "Saint-Saens isthe French Beethoven." I would not call Beethoven "the Austrian Saint-Saens." I never knew why many musicologist do this.

It is not a musicological epithet, Hofrat, it is how the French looked at Saint Saens during his lifetime.

[Chris]

Perhaps somebody can help me. Yesterday I was going through the score of LvB's 4th Piano concerto and I noticed in the violin part that it comprised chords and wondered how this is to be played, since the violin is principally a melodic instrument. I hope this question isn't absolutely naive, but I haven't come across this before - perhaps I just haven't noticed it, that's all. For example, in bar 24 of the 1st movement the notes are d,b slurred to d & a (written as chords) on the top treble stave, and octave d's repeated in the lower treble stave (semi-quavers), suggesting a single instrument. This happens a lot throughout the Concerto. Please don't tell me I'm idiot!!

As pointed out, sometimes the string parts are divided. But the violin is capable of playing two notes simultaneously, or even three or four in a more limited way.

[Bonn1827]

Thanks, too, Chris. The thing that puzzled me was that there are often 1st and 2nd violins so why WOULD one violin want to play harmonically. All a learning curve for me as I mainly played piano (not very well!)

[Chris]

Well, suppose you wanted some sustained four note chords played by violins - you could only accomplish this by dividing both sections in two. Or perhaps you had a fugue with many voices, and you needed the violins to cover more than two of them. Indeed, especially in some Romantic and later music, string sections will divide into more than two parts, even.

[Bonn1827]

It's many years since I studied musicology and I seem to have forgotten lots, which is very sad. Use it or lose it, as they say. Thanks for that information; it makes perfect sense. I must go back into Walter Piston's "Orchestration", on my bookshelf.