20th Century music

[Quijote]

In many ways Shostakovich is the successor to Beethoven with his string quartets. You should try listening to some of these. Great recordings available from some of the world's leading string quartets. Glad you liked piano concerto (2) - it is deeply moving isn't it?

I always thought that Bartok was the successor to Beethoven in terms of string quartets, but that is my personal opinion, not something gleaned from CD liner notes or other such mediums that propagate received opinion. As to Dimitri himself, Boulez had this to say (and I have no personal opinion, I merely cite [well, paraphrase] in this instance) : a third or fourth pressing of the Mahler olive. I would be curious to know what these "many ways" are.

[Bonn1827]

Well, for starters there's the number; the complexity and structure; the seemingly inexhaustible exploration of ideas; the innovative qualities. Look up the rest. BTW, I don't read liner notes on CDs, unless written by a notable musicologist or performer of stature. Dimitri isn't to everyone's taste - some call his symphonies "iron foundry music" - I just think his string quartets are wonderful, and I'm capable of thinking for myself.

[Quijote]

Well, for starters there's the number; the complexity and structure; the seemingly inexhaustible exploration of ideas; the innovative qualities. Look up the rest. BTW, I don't read liner notes on CDs, unless written by a notable musicologist or performer of stature. Dimitri isn't to everyone's taste - some call his symphonies "iron foundry music" - I just think his string quartets are wonderful, and I'm capable of thinking for myself.

The number? A non-starter. What have numbers to do with it? The complexity and the structure? If you say so. Check out Ligeti and Ferneyhough for the same. Seemingly inexhaustible exploration of ideas? Bartok (who really knows how to exploit the strings), Ligeti (ditto to the power of 10), and Berio. Innovative qualities? What, in Shostakovitch quartets? What would those be? Do tell, and be careful, I'm a 'cellist.

You say you don't read CD liner notes : delighted to hear it. Why then do your posts strike me that way? If you think Dmitri's quartets are wonderful I'm not going to question that; enjoy. That you are capable of thinking for yourself : well done. Now show me.

[Quijote]

Well, for starters there's the number; the complexity and structure; the seemingly inexhaustible exploration of ideas; the innovative qualities. Look up the rest. BTW, I don't read liner notes on CDs, unless written by a notable musicologist or performer of stature. Dimitri isn't to everyone's taste - some call his symphonies "iron foundry music" - I just think his string quartets are wonderful, and I'm capable of thinking for myself.

So, you have given us "the starters", and rather meagre they were. What would the main dish be? Something substantial we would hope. Not to mention the dessert. Will you be serving a digéstif?

[Bonn1827]

You are much too severe a teacher for me to do that. I do have an Hons. degree in Musicology so am not completely stupid, Phil.

[Quijote]

You are much too severe a teacher for me to do that. I do have an Hons. degree in Musicology so am not completely stupid, Phil.

You are not. I have been too grumpy. Apologies.

[UB1]

I am a fan of Nielsen's late symphonies and Vagn Holmboe is often noted as his successors. He may have written a little too much music but I have never found anything of his that was not worth listening to.

For those who like Stravinsky I would recommend Igor Markevitch. I think it is a shame he gave up composing at a young age to concentrate on conducting.

One of my favorites from the middle years of the century is Karl Amadeus Hartmann. Most people who enjoy Mahler seem to enjoy Hartmann's symphonies. I am not a big Mahler fan but I do feel Hartmann is one of the fine symphonist of the century.

For many years Robert Simpson was in the top 5 of listening list. From 6 on for his symphonies and most of his string quartets I would highly recommend. The 3rd Symphony is quite good also.

Allan Pettersson may not have written the most up-lifting music but I have never found it as angst filled as many. I am partial to his 7th and then 10-13 but I will say his music may not be for everyone. Do not miss his vocal music. His Barefoot songs arranged for choir are plain gorgeous.

Finally to a living composer - Aulis Sallinen - his chamber music, operas, and his 5th symphony has entertained me for many hours.

More later is anyone is interested.

[Roehre]

first: Welcome to these boards, UB1

I am a fan of Nielsen's late symphonies and Vagn Holmboe is often noted as his successors. He may have written a little too much music but I have never found anything of his that was not worth listening to.

Holmboe's departure from Bartok (in his 1st symphony) and slowly but surely developing his own style (IMO from his 4th symphony onwards) is a voyage of discovery in itself. His symphonies, his (chamber)concertos and the cycle of string quartets are worth exploring. The only work of his I am less enthoudiastic (at this moment that is) is his 10th symphony, which I think is too heavily leaning on too undistinguished material for too long. But even so it isn't a bas pece at all.

For those who like Stravinsky I would recommend Igor Markevitch. I think it is a shame he gave up composing at a young age to concentrate on conducting.

A pity that his orchestral works -recorded by Marco Polo with the Arnhem orchestra- aren't generally available any more. For lovers of double bass concertos: Markevich's concerto is worth a hearing. Icare is IMO one of the best places to start listening to THIS Igor.

One of my favorites from the middle years of the century is Karl Amadeus Hartmann. Most people who enjoy Mahler seem to enjoy Hartmann's symphonies. I am not a big Mahler fan but I do feel Hartmann is one of the fine symphonist of the century.

And admirers of Hartmann's music have since a couple of years the chance to follow Hartmann's development through the years, including the pre-war symphonic works (a.o.Sinfonia tragica, Symphonie L'Oeuvre", Symphony for Strings and soprano) the reworkings of this pre-war output into thesix post-war symphonies 1-6, followed by no.7 and 8 which were completely begun from scratch.
His Concerto funèbre (a violin concerto from 1939, a "j'accuse" to the Nazis !) has become quite popular the last say 15 years, his 2 string quartets are worth investigating as is his piano music and are his diverse concertos.
One German composer who went into internal exil during the years of the Third Reich, didn't emigrate, but contimued composing, although his works could not be performed.

For many years Robert Simpson was in the top 5 of listening list. From 6 on for his symphonies and most of his string quartets I would highly recommend. The 3rd Symphony is quite good also.

I personally do think that Simpson symphonies 1-5 are excellent works too, and we have to keep in mind that the First symphony was the "doctoral thesis" which earned him his doctorate! A work of his which I love is his Variations on a theme by Nielsen (for orchestra) and his 32 Variations and a Fugue on a theme by Haydn (= string quartet no.9, 1982).

Allan Pettersson may not have written the most up-lifting music but I have never found it as angst filled as many. I am partial to his 7th and then 10-13 but I will say his music may not be for everyone. Do not miss his vocal music. His Barefoot songs arranged for choir are plain gorgeous.

I agree with you regarding the 7th, but nos 6 and 8 belong to my favourites as well. I particularly don't appreciate well the Symphony no.12 "De döda pa torget", which has got IMO too strong choral parts, covering the orcehstra. Don't forget to listen to the 3 Concertos for strings and especially the 2nd of his 2 violin concertos.

Finally to a living composer - Aulis Sallinen - his chamber music, operas, and his 5th symphony has entertained me for many hours.

Yes, this "Washington Mosaics" is a colourful score, and quite a difference in orchestral writing compared with the nos.1-3, of which the very first really is a masterstroke. Chamber music of Sallinen's shouldn't be neglected either: especially the serious String quartet no.3 and the rather hilarious Chamber-music III "The nocturnal dances of Don Juanquixote" opus 58 give food to serious thoughts and genuine relaxation.

More later is anyone is interested.

Yes please

[UB1]

first: Welcome to these boards, UB1

Thanks I enjoy sharing thoughts on music that I love to listen to.

A pity that his orchestral works -recorded by Marco Polo with the Arnhem orchestra- aren't generally available any more. For lovers of double bass concertos: Markevich's concerto is worth a hearing. Icare is IMO one of the best places to start listening to THIS Igor.

Most of the orchestral works that were on Marco Polo are now available on Naxos and can be previewed on demand. If you fork over $29 a year, they will let you listen to anything in their catalog. I agree that Icare
is a good starting place for Markevitch.

One German composer who went into internal exil during the years of the Third Reich, didn't emigrate, but contimued composing, although his works could not be performed.

I believe he would not let them be performed. IIRC his wife had money so he could do this.

I personally do think that Simpson symphonies 1-5 are excellent works too, and we have to keep in mind that the First symphony was the "doctoral thesis" which earned him his doctorate! A work of his which I love is his Variations on a theme by Nielsen (for orchestra) and his 32 Variations and a Fugue on a theme by Haydn (= string quartet no.9, 1982).

I can not say I am a fan of the 2nd, 4th and 5th symphonies but I have not listened to them in years so perhaps I should find time to go back and listen again.

I do not think his solo piano music is up to the standards of his other music.

I particularly don't appreciate well the Symphony no.12 "De döda pa torget", which has got IMO too strong choral parts, covering the orcehstra.

I have to confess that I love the 12th symphony. But then I also love Nono's political protests works so I guess it is not surprising that I like this piece.


Do you know Sallinen's vocal music? My favorite two operas of his are The Red Line and Kullervo. His song cycle, Songs of Life and Death, is one of the most beautiful and powerful that I know from any period.

[Quijote]

Interesting postings from UB1 and Roehre. I do not know the works of Vagn Holmboe, Allan Pettersson and Karl Amadeus Hartmann, and I am therefore duly alerted to these composers who, to be frank, have never appeared "on my radar", so to speak.
I am not about to disparage composers who choose to write in such juggernaut genres ("The Symphony" - gasp!), but I do wonder what their original "voice" might be. I have heard some of the Robert Simpson symphonies you both refer to, but I was never tempted back to repeated listening. On the other hand, his analysis of the Bruckner symphonies I found masterly.
There is one composer I find who is consistently ignored in "mainstream" debate on the 20th century, and that is Edgar Varèse. Why this should be so perplexes me, as I personally place him beside (and just a little above) Webern for his pioneering work. It is Varèse - more so than Webern - who really opened my ears to the beauty of music "beyond the printed note". Boulez himself has long laboured to bring this composer to the fore, but he remains obscure. It is a great shame.

[Roehre]

Interesting postings from UB1 and Roehre. I do not know the works of Vagn Holmboe, Allan Pettersson and Karl Amadeus Hartmann, and I am therefore duly alerted to these composers who, to be frank, have never appeared "on my radar", so to speak.
I am not about to disparage composers who choose to write in such juggernaut idioms ("The Symphony" - gasp!), but I do wonder what their original "voice" might be. I have heard some of the Robert Simpson symphonies you both refer to, but I was never tempted back to repeated listening. On the other hand, his analysis of the Bruckner symphonies I found masterly.
There is one composer I find who is consistently ignored in "mainstream" debate on the 20th century, and that is Edgar Varèse. Why this should be so perplexes me, as I personally place him beside (and just a little above) Webern for his pioneering work. It is Varèse - more so than Webern - who really opened my ears to the beauty of music "beyond the printed note". Boulez himself has long laboured to bring this composer to the fore, but he remains obscure. It is a great shame.

And Varese's output fits neatly on 2 CDs (Chailly/Concertgebouw on Decca e.g.) whereas Webern's still takes 5 or 6 (Boulez on DGG e.g.).
I prefer Webern slightly to Varèse - because of the silence of the former's music. But Varèse is in terms of orchestral sonoroties not just, but far superior to Webern IMO, and -for that matter- to nearly all 20th C composers. Messiaen comes near.

[Quijote]

And Varese's output fits neatly on 2 CDs (Chailly/Concertgebouw on Decca e.g.) whereas Webern's still takes 5 or 6 (Boulez on DGG e.g.).
I prefer Webern slightly to Varèse - because of the silence of the former's music. But Varèse is in terms of orchestral sonoroties not just, but far superior to Webern IMO, and -for that matter- to nearly all 20th C composers. Messiaen comes near.

Yes, very perceptive comments, Roehre. Silence is golden. I agree, Varèse has a far more subtle handling of sonority, which almost has an "electroacoustic" approach. Messiaen comes close, this is true, but Boulez even closer. Varèse's timbral approaches were precursors to a true "acousmatic" ideal, in my opinion.

[Quijote]

Of course, if somebody would question me on my terminology ("electroacoustic" or "acousmatic" approaches to essentially instrumental writing), this may widen the debate somewhat. After all, this is the Beethoven Reference Site, and we should be aware of the responsibility that infers. It is time, ladies and gentlemen, to get very serious.

[Quijote]

And you may count on me for original comments.

[Quijote]

For instance, there are times (rare, I admit) when I can listen to a Beethoven symphony or concerto "acousmatically". The higher the number of instruments, the higher my "distance from the source of sound". It is, finally, a question of "listening attitude." This is a learned approach, and one that suits my own particular mindset.