Beethoven's uniqueness

[Peter]

What stands out for me more than anything else in comparison to other composers is Beethoven's incredible ability to reinvent himself - he never sounds the same, each work is unique and unlike any other - this is especially true from the middle period on. Any thoughts?

[Bonn1827]

This question of "uniqueness" is an interesting one. I've thought about this SO OFTEN!!

Take something like the Piano Concerto No. 1 - even though written after the "2nd". It harks back to Mozart in idiom but what about that "tico-tico" rhythm in the third movement?!! Even though Mozart had used "Turkish" rhythms in Sonata K330, for example, there'd never been anything like a Latin-style syncopated main theme in European art music when Beethoven tried it and it works magnificently in the 3rd movement. The first movement subjects are both lyrical and beautiful too, but there is an additional element and I think this is a kind of "thundering" (for want of a better work) power which departs from the "grace" and "charm" of Mozart and moves the sonata into newer territory. (I don't want to suggest that Mozart didn't have power, poignancy and drama -it certainly did, but these were "contained", if you will.) Beethoven speaks more DIRECTLY to me, that's all.

It's sad to think that Mozart couldn't "evolve" further because of his very early death. Beethoven lived long enough and was a sufficiently intellectual composer to break new ground. Again, the effect (for me) has been a MORE DIRECT appeal to the senses, particularly those "desert island" middle to late period piano sonatas. There is nothing like them in all of music, to my mind. Twenty five years ago I would never have believed that the pattern of a few notes could be listened to and re-understood again and again and again - not to mention "interpretation". They yield surprises constantly. The is the joy for me - I never feel "over-familiarized" with Beethoven. As Bernstein said, he knew exactly the right note to come next.

[Roehre]

What stands out for me more than anything else in comparison to other composers is Beethoven's incredible ability to reinvent himself - he never sounds the same, each work is unique and unlike any other - this is especially true from the middle period on. Any thoughts?

Beethoven re-invented himself time and again, even within the different periods of his creative live (and IMO was about to enter a new phase in that respect - see the differences between opus 135 and Finale opus 130 compared with the other late quartets e.g.).

But he is definitely not the only one composer to do so: Stravinsky is in that respect an immediately comparable composer, who did re-invent himself actually more thoroughly than Beethoven did, and who did influence the musical world around him in a similar way.

DesPrez, Telemann, CPE Bach, Janacek and Bartok are other examples

[Preston]

Unfortunately, I am quite thoughtless. I have never thought of the diversity of Beethoven. Now that you mention it, the diversity and style of almost each piece does seem quite different- even to my feeble ears. What you said about the middle period and the late when compared to the early, does seem right. The earlier works do have a sound which makes them sound kind of similar when compared with the works of the middle period on. Yet, after the early period- the diversity is astounding.

I imagine it would be rare for a composer to write music with such diversity, although I do not know? I mean, starting with the 3rd symphony and all the way to the 9th, every single symphony has a completely different sound, and I do believe that almost all the other genres do too! It is like each work has a different soul.

[Peter]

Beethoven re-invented himself time and again, even within the different periods of his creative live (and IMO was about to enter a new phase in that respect - see the differences between opus 135 and Finale opus 130 compared with the other late quartets e.g.).

But he is definitely not the only one composer to do so: Stravinsky is in that respect an immediately comparable composer, who did re-invent himself actually more thoroughly than Beethoven did, and who did influence the musical world around him in a similar way.

DesPrez, Telemann, CPE Bach, Janacek and Bartok are other examples

It was within the different creative periods that I was getting at rather than the 3 accepted periods. You say Beethoven influenced the musical world around him, but to what extent was that influence on the upcoming Romantic school? According to Charles Rosen all that is weakest in their work pays empty homage to Beethoven, all that is best turns away from him.

Stravinsky is a strange case in that it is his early works that have had the most impact - the early ballets. I'm not saying he didn't go on from there and produce fine works, but nothing that had the impact of the Rite of Spring.

[Chris]

What stands out for me more than anything else in comparison to other composers is Beethoven's incredible ability to reinvent himself - he never sounds the same, each work is unique and unlike any other - this is especially true from the middle period on. Any thoughts?

Very true. You wouldn't think 32 piano sonatas, for example, could possibly come from the same mind without repeating themselves a little, but no, every piece, every movement is unique!

I wonder if this has partly to do with Beethoven only writing what he really wanted to. He accepted commissions, of course, but he was a freelance composer, never with a permanent employer, and in addition wrote less works than Mozart (who lived a much shorter life) and Haydn. And with Mozart and Haydn, you see pieces that, while very good, do not necessarily stand out much. Of course, when you write over 100 symphonies, that is to be expected. On the other hand, I would have said the same thing about 32 piano sonatas. And yet...each of those 32 is unique and the loss of even one would be significant. So while being completely independent certainly allowed Beethoven the luxury of this uniqueness, it was something more in him that actually accomplished it.

[Sorrano]

Yet, with all the uniqueness, the music he composed is recognizable as being his; there is an element common to all of his works.

[Michael]

I imagine it would be rare for a composer to write music with such diversity, although I do not know? I mean, starting with the 3rd symphony and all the way to the 9th, every single symphony has a completely different sound, and I do believe that almost all the other genres do too! It is like each work has a different soul.

Absolutely right, Preston. I think it was Robert Simpson who pointed out that if you leave out the First Symphony and the Ninth, it would be quite difficult to put the rest of the symphonies in order of composition - if you didn't already know.
Basil Lam has this to say: "Some composers have never surpassed the finest works of their first maturity, others have improved beyond reasonable expectation in style and feeling, but what is unique to Beethoven is the unhurried, calm progression, in so many genres, from perfect early works to not less perfect deeper ones which never invalidate or supersede their predecessors."

[Chris]

Yet, with all the uniqueness, the music he composed is recognizable as being his; there is an element common to all of his works.

True. I remember hearing pieces on the radio and thinking, "I have never heard this before, but I KNOW that's by Beethoven", and I was always right. It's unmistakable.

[Bonn1827]

You're quite right, Phillip 2! What I really meant was Latin rhythms in a symphony or concerto to that point in time. Yes, there is a significant Spanish influence in earlier music - for example, the suite. But I suggest this is not as "idiosyncratic" as the appearance of that "tico-tico" (if you will) in the middle of a Beethoven concerto!! I adore it, BTW. In fact, his piano concerto No. 1 is an all-time fave.

Stockhausen!? Tell us more.

[Bonn1827]

Excellent question, Phil. Musical "fingerprints" are so obvious, yet so inexplicable in many ways. Yesterday I was listening to Elgar's "Introduction and Allegro" with my (non-musical) husband. I said that, on first acquaintance, once could say it was Dvorak that we were hearing but that it would shortly become obvious that it had "Elgar's fingerprints" all over it. I tried to explain what this meant and crudely suggested it was his soaring, noble melody line reminiscent of your basic "Pomp and Circumstance" or the symphonies. But that, somehow, didn't seem like an adequate explanation. LvB's fingerprints are unique and I tend to think it has something to do with the explosive passion and temperament of some of the work, but also his chord and harmonic progressions. You could play a "Beethoven chord", for example, and smile knowingly to yourself (like a mad relation?).

[Quijote]

[...] and in addition wrote less [sic] works than Mozart [...]

Sorry to be a pedant yet again, Chris, but LvB wrote fewer works than WAM. Or did you mean LvB wrote lesser works than Wolfie? The difference is quite important.

[Chris]

Yes. Ditto with Haydn, Mozart ... (the list goes on). The key question is : what exactly are their "fingerprints"?

To some extent, but no, I could not identify works as being by Haydn or Mozart with the same certainty as by Beethoven.

[Peter]

To answer the question - several. Roeher has mentioned some composers (see above) who have 'reinvented' themselves; I would add one more : Stockhausen. Why? Because he never sounds the same, each of his works is unique and really quite unlike any other.

Sorry to be pedantic but it is disrespectful to get the spelling of a name wrong - 'Roehre' (see above). Yes I'd agree with your appraisal of Stockhausen.

[Quijote]

Sorry to be pedantic but it is disrespectful to get the spelling of a name wrong - 'Roehre' (see above). Yes I'd agree with your appraisal of Stockhausen.

Quite right about the misspelling, I do apologize to Roehre. His name is like a tricky little passage on the 'cello that never sits quite right under the fingers. Likewise typing his name on my computer keyboard...