Beethoven and Bach

[Roehre]

That's very interesting Roehre - would Kiesewetter's score have been the Haydn-Traeg copy and if so isn't it strange that Beethoven hadn't had access to this earlier through Van Swieten? Yet I think Beethoven's 1810 letter indicates he wasn't familiar with the work when he states that the Mass 'is said to contain' that Basso Ostinato and he also quotes the passage in the wrong key of E major instead of E minor. He may have known the ground bass from the "Crucifixus" from Kirnberger's "Die Kunst des reinen Satzes". What evidence does your source provided for the loan of the score to Beethoven?

The 1810 letter (Brandenburg nr. 474. Beethoven an Breitkopf & Härtel in Leipzig, Vien am 15ten Herbstmonath [= Oktober] 1810), contains the following passus:

nebstbey mögte ich alle Werke von Karl Philip Emanuel Bach, die ja alle bey ihnen verlegt worden - nebstbey von J. Sebastian Bach eine missa worin sich folgendes Crucifixux mit einem Basso ostinato, der ihnen gleichen soll, befinden soll nemlich:
[Further I'd like to receive all the works by CPE Bach, which were published at your's - and from JSBach a Mass in which there should be the following Crucifixus with a Basso ostinato something like this (follows music example, which IS from the Crucifixus (though in E-major, not e-minor)).

I am doubtful whether Beethoven actually had seen the full score at that time (why otherwise make such a unneccessary mistake), but I do think at that moment parts of the Hohe Messe were known to him, or as you state, this particular one from Kirnberger's "Die Kunst des reinen Satzes" (All 6 volumes of Kirnberger's theoretical works were in Beethoven's library)

I haven't got a primary source for the assumption that Beethoven borrowed the (full) score. It is mentioned as such in Das Beethoven Lexikon (i.e. vol.6. of the Beethoven Handbuch, Laaber Verlag, 2008, s.V. Bach- Johann Sebastian, p.74 1st column, unfortunately without any further sources mentioned (And at the present this is the only volume of the Beethoven handbuch which has been published. This 6-volume series is planned to be completed by 2012, but the Bach as well as the Mozart Handbücher missed their originally planned dates of completion by 3 and 4 years, respectively ). We have to be patient I'm afraid.

[Peter]

The 1810 letter (Brandenburg nr. 474. Beethoven an Breitkopf & Härtel in Leipzig, Vien am 15ten Herbstmonath [= Oktober] 1810), contains the following passus:

nebstbey mögte ich alle Werke von Karl Philip Emanuel Bach, die ja alle bey ihnen verlegt worden - nebstbey von J. Sebastian Bach eine missa worin sich folgendes Crucifixux mit einem Basso ostinato, der ihnen gleichen soll, befinden soll nemlich:
[Further I'd like to receive all the works by CPE Bach, which were published at your's - and from JSBach a Mass in which there should be the following Crucifixus with a Basso ostinato something like this (follows music example, which IS from the Crucifixus (though in E-major, not e-minor)).

I am doubtful whether Beethoven actually had seen the full score at that time (why otherwise make such a unneccessary mistake), but I do think at that moment parts of the Hohe Messe were known to him, or as you state, this particular one from Kirnberger's "Die Kunst des reinen Satzes" (All 6 volumes of Kirnberger's theoretical works were in Beethoven's library)

I haven't got a primary source for the assumption that Beethoven borrowed the (full) score. It is mentioned as such in Das Beethoven Lexikon (i.e. vol.6. of the Beethoven Handbuch, Laaber Verlag, 2008, s.V. Bach- Johann Sebastian, p.74 1st column, unfortunately without any further sources mentioned (And at the present this is the only volume of the Beethoven handbuch which has been published. This 6-volume series is planned to be completed by 2012, but the Bach as well as the Mozart Handbücher missed their originally planned dates of completion by 3 and 4 years, respectively ). We have to be patient I'm afraid.

Thanks Roehre, Anderson's translation of the 1810 letter implies uncertainty on Beethoven's part - she says 'in which there is said to be the following ostinato'.