Beethoven and Bach

[Bonn1827]

I'm wanting to know how LvB had access to the music of Bach. We know that Mozart knew Bach's music, as did Beethoven. What intrigues me is that, by the time of WAM and LvB, Bach's music had fallen out of fashion and it was really only Mendelssohn who "revived" his music in the mid 19th century. So, were there performances of Bach before then which LvB had HEARD? If so, where? And the manuscripts. Where would these have been available? What WAS the situation with Bach's manuscripts, since he was a provincial composer whose work quickly went out of fashion. Was the music of Bach, by then, the sole prerogative of the music fraternity. Can anyone shed light on these issues, particularly insofar as they relate to the (soon-to-be) deaf Beethoven.

[Chris]

I know that he had access to the Well-Tempered Clavier, and that he played and studied those preludes and fugues from a young age. And judging from the Diabelli Variations, he may also have known Bach's Goldberg Variations. They had been published in Zurich in 1817, so that seems possible, and he may have even had access to them before that. But I don't know if he knew anything else. I doubt he ever heard any other Bach performed. In that Catholic area, Bach's Lutheran religious music would have been of no use. And if it had been performed, it most probably would have been arranged for a more modern ensemble, as Mozart and others did for the works of Handel and other older composers.

[Peter]

Beethoven was fortunate in having Neefe as his teacher and Baron Van Swieten as a friend in Vienna - both were passionate Bach lovers. Through Neefe Beethoven learnt all the 48 preludes and fugues by heart at the age of 13! Van Swieten had been an ambassador to the Prussian court where the music of Bach and Handel was cherished by Frederick the Great's sister, Princess Anna Amalia of Prussia. After his return to Vienna he determined to make the works of those composers better known by having them performed at his own residence (3 Renngasse) and the Schwarzenberg and Lobkowitz palaces.

[Roehre]

Beethoven knew very early the complete 48 preludes and fugues from Das Wohltemperierte Klavier, as these were presented to him by his Bonn tutor Christian Gottlob Neefe (who edited a.o. the WTC for Nicolaus Simrock's 1800 edition, as the publisher proudly states in an advertisement).
Beethoven seems to have known all of them by heart.

throughout his life Beethoven had entrance to the Bach-collections which were in hands of friends of his:

-for a start the dedicatee of Symphony 1, Baron Van Swieten, in whose circle Mozart learned to know Bach and Handel as well. This collection was mostly, but not exclusively (Handel oratorios!) concentrated on instrumental works.

-after Van Swieten's death it was Raphael Georg Kiesewetter's Bach-collection of (in majority) vocal works which Beethoven was allowed to use.

-in later years it was the important and ever expanding collection of music (printed as well as autographs and copies) of Archduke Rudolph which was extensively used by Beethoven, and we find traces of this use in the Missa solemnis and even more in the Heiliger Dankgesang from opus 132.

Apart from this, Beethoven was enthousiastically responding to Hoffmeister's announcement of a Bach Gesamtausgabe (in 1801), and wrote more than once (a.o. in 1803 and 1803 to Breitkopf) letters requesting Bach scores which he by then still didn't know.

In Beethoven's library the following volumes of Bach's works were present at the moment of Beethoven's death:
-WTC I
-the two- and three part Inventionen BWV 772-786
-Toccata d-minor BWV 913
-Partitas in c-minor BWV 826, D-major BWV 828 and G-major BWV 829
-Motets BWV 225 and 228
-Kunst der Fuge BWV 1080

He without doubt knew the Hohe Messe b-minor BWV 232 as it is known that he borrowed that score. He has at least seen and probably -but not with certainty- studied the Goldberg-variations.

Though some phrases in the 1st mvt of the cello-sonate opus 69 and the finale of opus 110 seem to point to "Es ist vollbracht" from the Johannes-Passion BWV 245, it is almost certain that Beethoven did not know this or the St.Matthew passion BWV 244 at all.

[Bonn1827]

That information was great. I find it poignant in the extreme that LvB didn't get to HEAR (or probably KNOW) either Passion by JSB or the BMinor Mass. But from what you say it demonstrates, once again, the importance of:

GREAT TEACHERS, and
THE PATRONAGE OF THE ARISTOCRACY.

As you say, in the Catholic environment, Lutheran Protestantism ensured Bach remained marginalised, so to say, with respect to his sacred music.

Listening again recently to both Passions and then the BMinor Mass made me realize how different both are from the Mass - which is more "orchestral" in scope (reminiscent of the "orchestral suites"). The Passions provided more opportunities, I feel, for Bach to dramatize (wasn't it the town council which said "nothing too theatrical" when giving Bach a brief?) and those exquisite SATB harmonies and their accompaniments. WOW!

[Ateach Asc]

Beethoven and Bach

The posts in here have shown considerable contact by LVB with the works of Bach.

There are at least two works which seem to pay tribute to Bach.

The first that comes to mind is the last movement of the ninth string quartet. It seems to have been very much inspired by the last movement of Bach's third Brandenburg concerto.

And there is very little question in my mind that the monumental opening of the Missa Solemnis, the Kyrie, remains very much a tribute to Bach's Mass in B.

[Michael]

The first that comes to mind is the last movement of the ninth string quartet. It seems to have been very much inspired by the last movement of Bach's third Brandenburg concerto.

.

Do you mean the fugal finale of the third Razumovsky? If so, there is a slight rhythmic resemblance but I have always felt that Beethoven's wild last movement was like nothing heard before or since. I have never been able to listen to it without jumping out of my chair. The Bach is also one of my favourites but quite staid by comparison.

[Ateach Asc]

Do you mean the fugal finale of the third Razumovsky? If so, there is a slight rhythmic resemblance but I have always felt that Beethoven's wild last movement was like nothing heard before or since. I have never been able to listen to it without jumping out of my chair. The Bach is also one of my favourites but quite staid by comparison.

Perhaps it would be appropriate to hear these two works... and in addition, the last movement of the Mendelsohn Octet in E Flat Major to get an idea of the haunting similarities to the Bach work. Or to get, at the very least, some idea of why these works seem to carry faint echoes of the Bach work.

Bach - Brandenburg Concerto no. 3 mov. 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXBmygI-N3M

Beethoven - String Quartet No. 9 (Razumovsky No. 3) mov. 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FW_aUDNE3k

Mendelsohn - Octet in E Flat Major mov. 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmydo...eature=related

And if the Beethoven and Mendelsohn works do seem to have some reflections of the Bach, then it would seem to be in the form of awed tribute.

[Michael]

You are proving your case very well with the three examples above. I can understand how you hear the similarities. Would Beethoven have known the third Brandenburg?

[Chaszz]

I believe the question of whether Beethoven knew the B Minor Mass is an open one. I think there is at most an extant letter from Beethoven asking a publisher or a patron for a manuscript of the Mass if one is available, but there is no indication he ever received one. I think it would be safe to say that of Bach's grand church music style, with chorus and orchestra including Baroque trumpets and kettle-drums, exemplified in the B Minor Mass, in the Magnificat, Easter Oratorio, Christmas Oratorio and in many cantatas, Beethoven knew little or nothing. So Beethoven seems to have known a selection of Bach's subtle instrumental and keyboard music fairly well, but with a few exceptions to have sadly missed out on the intensely emotional religious works which use Bach's most extensive sonic forces.

[Peter]

I believe the question of whether Beethoven knew the B Minor Mass is an open one. I think there is at most an extant letter from Beethoven asking a publisher or a patron for a manuscript of the Mass if one is available, but there is no indication he ever received one. I think it would be safe to say that of Bach's grand church music style, with chorus and orchestra including Baroque trumpets and kettle-drums, exemplified in the B Minor Mass, in the Magnificat, Easter Oratorio, Christmas Oratorio and in many cantatas, Beethoven knew little or nothing. So Beethoven seems to have known a selection of Bach's subtle instrumental and keyboard music fairly well, but with a few exceptions to have sadly missed out on the intensely emotional religious works which use Bach's most extensive sonic forces.

Extraordinary that the reputation of the Bach B minor was so high and yet it was unperformed and apparently unattainable - Beethoven made two attempts, firstly in 1810 and then again in 1824 when he ordered the score from Nageli in Zurich unaware that it hadn't been published there and wasn't until 1833. His 1810 letter to Hoffmeister makes it quite clear that he was not familiar with the work - he quotes the basso ostinato (which he must have got from somewhere!) but qualifys this by saying the Mass is thought to contain that passage.

[Roehre]

Extraordinary that the reputation of the Bach B minor was so high and yet it was unperformed and apparently unattainable - Beethoven made two attempts, firstly in 1810 and then again in 1824 when he ordered the score from Nageli in Zurich unaware that it hadn't been published there and wasn't until 1833. His 1810 letter to Hoffmeister makes it quite clear that he was not familiar with the work - he quotes the basso ostinato (which he must have got from somewhere!) but qualifys this by saying the Mass is thought to contain that passage.

Both letters are requests for a printed score, which during Beethoven's lifetime wasn't published. Beethoven must have known that Nägeli had acquired the original score from Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach after his death in 1788.
The complete score was not available in a printed format before 1845, though Nägeli and Simrock collaborated in printing the first part in 1833.

It is known that Beethoven was able to browse through a manuscript copy of the complete score (and even was able to borrow it for a short while), shortly after Kiesewetter acquired such a copy in 1816. It is however likely that Kiesewetter had already some orchestral or vocal parts in his collection, which Beethoven may have seen (even before 1810).
It is even possible that Beethoven attended a concert in which a part of this Mass was played from the Kiesewetter score, as it was executed partly at least once that year 1816 in Vienna (privately)

[Peter]

It is known that Beethoven was able to browse through a manuscript copy of the complete score (and even was able to borrow it for a short while), shortly after Kiesewetter acquired such a copy in 1816. It is however likely that Kiesewetter had already some orchestral or vocal parts in his collection, which Beethoven may have seen (even before 1810).
It is even possible that Beethoven attended a concert in which a part of this Mass was played from the Kiesewetter score, as it was executed partly at least once that year 1816 in Vienna (privately)

Just wondered what the source for that is Roehre as the Oxford biographical dictionary states that although Kiesewetter is occasionally mentioned in the conversation books, there is no record of any social contact between them bar an exchange of letters in 1824 concerning a proposed oratorio for the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde. Beethoven was surely too deaf in 1816 to have been able to appreciate a performance of the mass?

[Roehre]

Just wondered what the source for that is Roehre as the Oxford biographical dictionary states that although Kiesewetter is occasionally mentioned in the conversation books, there is no record of any social contact between them bar an exchange of letters in 1824 concerning a proposed oratorio for the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde. Beethoven was surely too deaf in 1816 to have been able to appreciate a performance of the mass?

I agree with you that the chance that Beethoven would have been able to appreciate a performance in 1816 is but small, but nevertheless it cannot be ruled out completely, as he had his "good" as well as his "bad" days.
The conversation booklets start in 1818, the first to be dated February-March 1818, and as Beethoven's circle changed continuously consequently Kiesewetter hardly being mentioned or writing down something does not mean that he wasn't part of that circle in earlier years (which he was).

My source regarding Kiesewetter and the Hohe Messe however is Das Bach Lexikon (i.e. vol.6 of the Bach Handbuch), Laaber Verlag, 2000, s.V. h-moll-messe, p.262 2nd column.

[Peter]

I agree with you that the chance that Beethoven would have been able to appreciate a performance in 1816 is but small, but nevertheless it cannot be ruled out completely, as he had his "good" as well as his "bad" days.
The conversation booklets start in 1818, the first to be dated February-March 1818, and as Beethoven's circle changed continuously consequently Kiesewetter hardly being mentioned or writing down something does not mean that he wasn't part of that circle in earlier years (which he was).

My source regarding Kiesewetter and the Hohe Messe however is Das Bach Lexikon (i.e. vol.6 of the Bach Handbuch), Laaber Verlag, 2000, s.V. h-moll-messe, p.262 2nd column.

That's very interesting Roehre - would Kiesewetter's score have been the Haydn-Traeg copy and if so isn't it strange that Beethoven hadn't had access to this earlier through Van Swieten? Yet I think Beethoven's 1810 letter indicates he wasn't familiar with the work when he states that the Mass 'is said to contain' that Basso Ostinato and he also quotes the passage in the wrong key of E major instead of E minor. He may have known the ground bass from the "Crucifixus" from Kirnberger's "Die Kunst des reinen Satzes". What evidence does your source provided for the loan of the score to Beethoven?