Un grand Amour de Beethoven (1936)- film by Abel Gance

[Chris]

But is there ever going to be a definitive film about Beethoven (apart from documentary)? It is a bit like depicting God - well, he's a god to me. We can only be thankful that the Monty Python team never got a hold of his story and turned it into something like "The Life of Ludwig". Then we'd all be REALLY OFFENDED!!!

I really don't think it's like depicting God in the slightest. I'm sure we could come up with excellent ideas for how this should be done. The question is, will anyone want to make (or see) that movie besides Beethoven enthusiasts?

[Bonn1827]

You've misunderstood me, Chris. I meant that, like God, everyone has their own ideas about representation and thus it would be difficult to represent Beethoven. I didn't mean that LvB IS God or that it would be religious, just the difficulty of finding an idea/representation which would accord with most views of LvB.

I disagree that only LvB enthusiasts would be interested. "In Search of Beethoven" has been running for MONTHS in Sydney and when I went the theatre was absolutely packed with Beethoven admirers who wanted to share their thoughts on the way out of the theatre. I was pleasantly surprised that there is a market for serious examination of our great cultural masters. I took my husband to see "In Search of Beethoven" and he's not a classical music fan. He liked it very much and found it very moving.

[Bonn1827]

PS Chris. Jane Campion has just made a film about John Keats called "Bright Star" (and starring Abbie Cornish, who was in my son's Maths class in Year 12!) So, I'm sure she would be an ideal director for a film about Beethoven. I've often thought the Clara Schumann story would be a great one too.

[Peter]

I really don't think it's like depicting God in the slightest. I'm sure we could come up with excellent ideas for how this should be done. The question is, will anyone want to make (or see) that movie besides Beethoven enthusiasts?

Well they did with Amadeus. I know that had its faults but it was well acted (especially F.Murray-Abraham) and it was superb drama. I'm not suggesting that format, but it shows it is possible to engage a wide audience with such a film. I've always thought a Beethoven film should have the relationship with Karl at its heart to provide the necessary drama and counter-balance to what is otherwise simply a story about a deaf composer as far as most people are concerned.

[Peter]

PS Chris. Jane Campion has just made a film about John Keats called "Bright Star" (and starring Abbie Cornish, who was in my son's Maths class in Year 12!) So, I'm sure she would be an ideal director for a film about Beethoven. I've often thought the Clara Schumann story would be a great one too.

Yes it would be great as would Liszt and Chopin - these have of course been done - dreadfully! You'd think especially in Chopin and Schumann's bicentenary year someone would come up with a decent film about them? Such passion and drama!

[Michael]

Well they did with Amadeus. I know that had its faults but it was well acted (especially F.Murray-Abraham) and it was superb drama. I'm not suggesting that format, but it shows it is possible to engage a wide audience with such a film. I've always thought a Beethoven film should have the relationship with Karl at its heart to provide the necessary drama and counter-balance to what is otherwise simply a story about a deaf composer as far as most people are concerned.

Don't forget the recent "Copying Beethoven" starring Ed Harris which got some very bad reviews which it didn't entirely deserve. The writer of the screenplay was a member of this forum during the production of the movie and was open to suggestions from other members. But again the central flaw was an unlikely plot (though not as off-the-wall as "Immortal Beloved). The introduction of a beautiful female copyist who assisted Beethoven in the writing (not composing) of the Ninth Symphony was deemed necessary for the movie to be a commercial success (which it wasn't).
Also the structure was flawed by having the premiere of the Ninth about halfway through the film which had an anticlimactic effect on the remainder. It did show Beethoven composing the late quartets (in a rip-off of "Amadeus")
but in cinematic terms nothing could follow the Ninth which was handled very well - if you can deal with Anna Kruger conducting from the wings. (I have no problem with Anna Kruger - she is much easier on the eye than Ludwig - but she never existed.)
ED Harris was very good and didn't take the obvious route of chewing the scenery every five minutes. Again, I bought the DVD.
As I have said umpteen times already, my favourite movie/telly Beethoven is Paul Rhys in the three-part BBC drama/documentary called simply "Beethoven" which was broadcast in 2005. I still can't find it on DVD but a lot of it can be seen in YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nqi06Dl3c

[Chris]

You've misunderstood me, Chris. I meant that, like God, everyone has their own ideas about representation and thus it would be difficult to represent Beethoven. I didn't mean that LvB IS God or that it would be religious, just the difficulty of finding an idea/representation which would accord with most views of LvB.

I know what you meant, but I don't think that makes any difference. It is possible to come to a pretty good consensus of what Beethoven was like given the available sources. Put in the hands of a capable actor and director, I think that part would be taken care of. Copying Beethoven was mentioned, and I agree Ed Harris did a good job there; I believe Anthony Hopkins was originally slated to play Beethoven, and I wonder how that would have been.

But I thought we were talking more about the actual script being within the bounds of reality. Peter mentioned Amadeus as a successful movie about a composer, but that movie was almost entirely fiction. What I am wondering is, can a movie be made about Beethoven that sticks to the facts and still interests the general public? I think so, but I don't think the major studios do.

[Peter]

I know what you meant, but I don't think that makes any difference. It is possible to come to a pretty good consensus of what Beethoven was like given the available sources. Put in the hands of a capable actor and director, I think that part would be taken care of. Copying Beethoven was mentioned, and I agree Ed Harris did a good job there; I believe Anthony Hopkins was originally slated to play Beethoven, and I wonder how that would have been.

But I thought we were talking more about the actual script being within the bounds of reality. Peter mentioned Amadeus as a successful movie about a composer, but that movie was almost entirely fiction. What I am wondering is, can a movie be made about Beethoven that sticks to the facts and still interests the general public? I think so, but I don't think the major studios do.

Yes Amadeus was ficticious to a point (largely depending on which perspective you look at it from - don't forget it was meant to be the ravings of an insane Salieri). Derived from Pushkin's Mozart and Salieri succeeded because of Shaffer's play, great drama and fine acting from F.Murray Abraham.

I've no doubt that the same success could be achieved with Beethoven sticking relatively close to the facts - it just takes imagination, money, a good director, fine script and plausible actors -please not Tom Cruise etc..!

[Bonn1827]

I don't think of a film of this type should be handled by a major studio. I think Canal or similar would be more appropriate. Also, in making a "biopic" one has to first understand the nature of the project. What do we want from this film? Who will be the audience? Who will write it and what particular dramatic arc should it follow? Without first answering these questions it is a pointless exercise. In the end, success or failure will also be determined by the writing and the acting. No film was ever a success which wasn't well written and conceived. And I don't believe Beethoven enthusiasts would come to a consensus about what they think should be the main focus.

I loved "Amadeus" because it showed a generation of film-goers that it is possible to love music with a passion - and it was brilliantly acted and written. I don't think there has been a greater script written about a love for music, "....staring into that cage (bar lines) into an absolute beauty". How I believed those lines!! The music, mise-en-scene and high production values ensured its success and, importantly, it wasn't populated with "big name" actors. Rule 1: don't put a big megaplex name in a film if you want to
make it convincing. There are any number of brilliant, possibly stage, actors out there who would be just great. I love Phil Hoffman and am sure he could do JUST ANYTHING HE WANTED TO and for us to believe it.

[Chris]

My favorite part in Amadeus was when Salieri could not comprehend instruments doubling voices in the Requiem.

[Peter]

I don't think of a film of this type should be handled by a major studio. I think Canal or similar would be more appropriate. Also, in making a "biopic" one has to first understand the nature of the project. What do we want from this film? Who will be the audience? Who will write it and what particular dramatic arc should it follow? Without first answering these questions it is a pointless exercise. In the end, success or failure will also be determined by the writing and the acting. No film was ever a success which wasn't well written and conceived. And I don't believe Beethoven enthusiasts would come to a consensus about what they think should be the main focus.

I loved "Amadeus" because it showed a generation of film-goers that it is possible to love music with a passion - and it was brilliantly acted and written. I don't think there has been a greater script written about a love for music, "....staring into that cage (bar lines) into an absolute beauty". How I believed those lines!! The music, mise-en-scene and high production values ensured its success and, importantly, it wasn't populated with "big name" actors. Rule 1: don't put a big megaplex name in a film if you want to
make it convincing. There are any number of brilliant, possibly stage, actors out there who would be just great. I love Phil Hoffman and am sure he could do JUST ANYTHING HE WANTED TO and for us to believe it.

I think we could easily come to a consensus as I agree with everything (apart from that statement!) you've written! What matters ultimately is a plausible drama combined with fine acting and great performances of the music - this combination hasn't been achieved in previous attempts. Copying Beethoven and Immortal beloved failed the plausibility test big time and bordered on the ridiculous which is why neither film secured the kind of success enjoyed by Amadeus. Although Amadeus was ficticious it was still plausible because F.Murray Abraham convinced us of the jealousy and hatred of Salieri and of course because he really did make that poisoning confession -even though he was nuts at the time! One other essential ingredient is humour which was abundant in Amadeus - it is important that a Beethoven film doesn't come across as totally gloomy and depressing, such an easy trap to fall into.

[Preston]

Yes he captured the suffering Beethoven but that isn't the whole story...

I could not agree more. Yet, I do believe that Beethoven felt much extreme forms of suffering, yet, ofcourse not all of the time, by any means. I know of his humorous side, his laughter, his long lasting friendship, the sorrow and tears he felt and cried for what he was going through, the pranks he would make with Steiner and many others, etc.

I know that the film is anything but accurate. It is just that if one is going to focus on the suffering that Beethoven endured then I would prefer it to be extreme, because that is what I believe the suffering would have been like. Which, is why I respect Gance's film.

...it is important that a Beethoven film doesn't come across as totally gloomy and depressing, such an easy trap to fall into.

All too true.

Yes, F. Murray Abrahams acting was sublime, truly.

[Preston]

As for a Beethoven movie. I believe it would be a good idea to do away with Hollywood and make it more of an indie-film, strictly for Beethoven enthusiasts, scholars, etc. I think that the success from a movie like this should not come in money but in appreciation among enthusiasts, scholars, etc. of an accurate interpretation.

[Bonn1827]

You see, even on these pages people have differing views on HOW the Beethoven story should be represented! Humour, suffering, gloom etc.

Now, if we can convince someone like Jane Campion to go for the Schumann/Brahms story - particularly in Schumann's anniversary year - that would be just great. The musical possibilities alone are extremely tempting. Imagine combining the music of all 3 of them into a narrative - there's drama enough in the real story - the problem would be where to FINISH, not to start...!!

[Bonn1827]

Phil, Phil, Phil!! Shouldn't you be occupying yourself with trying to invade England with your Armada?