Mass C-Major op. 86

[gprengel]

Has there ever been a discussion on Beethoven's Mass C-Major op. 86?
For almost all of my life the Missa Solemnis has been the greatest work ever written in Music, but I must admit I never had a real appreciation for op. 86 except for the beatiful melody of the Kyrie. But recently I heard this work on my mp3 Player very often to get more into this work, and now I am really thrilled by it! Especially the Gloria is awesome and has quite a few elements which we see also in the Missa Solemnis. Also the Et Vitam venturi Fugue of the Credo and the Agnus Dei are just so great.
To me now it belongs to my favourite Masses (together with the Missa Solemnis,Mozart's c-minor Mass and Schubert's Masses in Ab and Eb).

I am amzed how fast he wrote it (between June and beginning of September 1807). In the first performance it was not received well. Does anybody know how it was received later on?

Gerd

[Bonn1827]

I must confess I've never heard the work, incredibly!! Thankyou for bringing it to the foreground. I have always thought the greatest "liturgical work" belonged to JS Bach's "St. Matthew Passion" and I still adhere to this belief, even though LvB is slightly more the preferred composer (for me). The Mass genre, overall, is still relatively unknown to me, but I have heard many over the years and like the Schubert Masses you mention (well, I love everything he wrote!). But I just don't think you can go past that extraordinary "lullaby" Bach wrote in the last scene of the "St. Matthew Passion". It defies description in terms of sheer power and beauty.

[gprengel]

But I just don't think you can go past that extraordinary "lullaby" Bach wrote in the last scene of the "St. Matthew Passion".

To me there are a few chorals which do speak to me, but as a whole "St. Matthew Passion" and even the B-minor Mass (except the "Dona nobis Pacem) never really reached me ... From Bach I mainly adore the piano music.

How much more I love Beethoven and Mendelssohn's spiritual music!

Gerd

[Michael]

I must confess I've never heard the work, incredibly!! Thankyou for bringing it to the foreground. .

If you've never heard the C major mass, you are in for a treat. Actually, the word "treat" is demeaning and doesn't come near to describing this work. You may have to give it a little time but it is one of Beethoven's most overlooked works - totally different to the Missa Solemnis and much more accessible. Still, Prince Nikolaus Esterhazy found it very difficult at its first performance and came out with the famous quote: "My dear Beethoven, what have you done here!" Another composer who was present, I think it was Hummel, started smirking at this remark and, of course, Beethoven stalked off in high dudgeon. Hummel always maintained that he was smirking at the Prince and not Beethoven.
If you can get hold of John Eliot Gardiner's recording, do so!

[Chris]

I love the Mass in C. I can't understand why it wasn't appreciated at the time.

[Bonn1827]

Gerd, I'm so surprised to have you say that about Bach. I sang the St. John Passion once with a university choir - translated into English (by a priest who has since gone to jail for child sexual abuse, tragically!!!!) - and this is another Bach marvel, yet so different from the St. Matthew Passion. Some of the recitative can become repetitive, but the arias and chorals are ineffably beautiful. The B Minor Mass is great too and I agree about the Dona Nobis Pacem!!

Bach's "piano" music is really his keyboard music, including the organ preludes and fugues, and I presume these are the ones you refer to? I remember the incoming Professor who headed the Music Department when I studied Musicology saying on her maiden lecture "Bach's Preludes and Fugues, the 48, were written to prove what was theoretically possible in music. Even when trying to prove a musical point Bach was never less than profoundly musical". I was intensely moved by those words of hers. I adore the Bach Partitas!! But, of course, LvB needs to reveal his secrets of sacred music to me so I'm going to take advice on these pages and immediately buy the Cmajor Mass!! John Eliot Gardiner is a hero, but I'm happy to have Concentus Musicus or similar if they have a recording of it. Thanks all.

[Peter]

But, of course, LvB needs to reveal his secrets of sacred music to me so I'm going to take advice on these pages and immediately buy the Cmajor Mass!! John Eliot Gardiner is a hero, but I'm happy to have Concentus Musicus or similar if they have a recording of it. Thanks all.

Also worth getting if you don't know it is Schubert's glorious last Eb Mass - the Kyrie is particularly sublime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkypH7ETgUs

[Phil Leeds]

Like the Agnus Dei very much

Thanks for the Schubert link Peter; sublime indeed

[gprengel]

I sang the St. John Passion once with a university choir ... and this is another Bach marvel, yet so different from the St. Matthew Passion. Some of the recitative can become repetitive, but the arias and chorals are ineffably beautiful.

Please give me a few titles of these arias and chorals, which you could recomend so that can give it another try to discover them....

Regarding the piano works I primarily meant the well-tempered piano, the Goldberg variations and the fantastic "Fantasia and Fugue in A minor, BWV 904 "


Gerd

[Bonn1827]

Gerd, with pleasure. Firstly, there are fewer arias than the St. Matthew Passion, but that isn't the only difference. The St. John Passion is the work of the younger Bach, more dramatic and plangent that the more contemplative, later work. The chorus acts more like the traditional Greek chorus than in the later work. (Sorry, I don't have access to umlaut or German double s). Choruses are used dramatically between recitatives.

The opening chorus: "Herr unser Herrscher", and the wonderful melismas on "Herrscher".

Choral: "O grosse Lieb" - wonderful voice-leading, exquisite harmony and, I think, dramatic use of the tierce de picardy (one of many to come).

Choral: "Dein Will gescheh".

Aria: "Ach mein Sinn"

Choral: "Christus, der uns selig macht"

Chorus: Ware dieser nicht ein Ubeltater"

Choral: "Ach grosser Konig" - wonderful ostinato inner accompaniment, rather like a chaconne IMO

Choral: "Durch dein Gefangnis"

Choral: "In meines Herzens Grunde" - sad, plangent and dramatic

Aria: "Zerfliesse, mein Herze"

Final chorus: "Ruht wolh, ihr heiligen Gebeine"

Final choral: "Ach, Herr, lass dein lieb Engelein" THIS IS THE MOST AMAZING PART OF THE PASSION - especially the exultant cry on the words "Herr Jesu Christ" - agony and ecstasy in one.

Enjoy!

[gprengel]

Thank you Bonn1827 for your recommendations. The following chorals indeed are very beautiful :

"Herr unser Herrscher"
"O grosse Lieb"
"Christus, der uns selig macht"
"Ach grosser Konig"
"In meines Herzens Grunde"
and especially indeed the final choral: "Ach, Herr, lass dein lieb Engelein"

But the Arias still to me are very tiring ...

I think the only Aria from Bach which I adore is "Mache dich meine Herze auf" from the Mathew Passion.

By the way, Bonn1827, which spiritual Music from Mendelssohn do you know?

Gerd

[Bonn1827]

Gerd, I'm glad you enjoyed these. They are wonderful - all. I do like the Arias, though, because I consider those melody lines unique and Bach uses dissonance to give additional meaning to the text. I started rehearsals for Mendelssohn's "Elijah" (oratorio) many years ago whilst in the University Choir but had to withdraw before the performance. It's a wonderful work too.

Recently the British author and critic Christopher Hitchens was in Australia and involved in a public discussion where he claimed "religion poisons everything". One wit suggested this argument could be refuted in three more words:

Johann Sebastian Bach

Cheers, Sue aka Bonn1827

[Quijote]

To return to Opus 86, I am happy to report that I shall be attending a concert of this work on Saturday 13 March here in Strasbourg, plus B's 8th Symphony. Even more, the concert is to be held in the Temple Neuf church, a mere 200 metres from my front door. An added extra : the conductor was one of my students. Another extra : I have a free ticket. A final extra, perhaps : if the performance does not please me I can leave and be home within 45 seconds, or go to a bar and smoke my head off.
I will of course keep you posted.

[Bonn1827]

This sounds just great, young Philip!! I don't think you will need to repair to the bar if you taught the conductor!!

[Roehre]

To return to Opus 86, I am happy to report that I shall be attending a concert of this work on Saturday 13 March here in Strasbourg, plus B's 8th Symphony. Even more, the concert is to be held in the Temple Neuf church, a mere 200 metres from my front door. An added extra : the conductor was one of my students. Another extra : I have a free ticket. A final extra, perhaps : if the performance does not please me I can leave and be home within 45 seconds, or go to a bar and smoke my head off.
I will of course keep you posted.

Why do I have only Finzi and Dvorak (cello concerto and 7th symphony) that night in Cannes?? Cannot they swap???