Sales of Classical Music

[Michael]

But isn't there a rest shown in the score? I bought a vinyl recording of this work in the sixties and the whole front cover was taken up by a giant reproduction of the first bar of the score and it showed first of all the little straight line thingy followed by the three Gs and E flat.
(As a character in a Leonard Bernstein sketch once said "Don't pull out all the technical stops on me." Does the score show a rest?)

[Zevy]

But isn't there a rest shown in the score? I bought a vinyl recording of this work in the sixties and the whole front cover was taken up by a giant reproduction of the first bar of the score and it showed first of all the little straight line thingy followed by the three Gs and E flat.
(As a character in a Leonard Bernstein sketch once said "Don't pull out all the technical stops on me." Does the score show a rest?)

Michael, musical notation does not require that any rests are shown prior to the first notes in the first measure. The "pickup" in this case could be shown as three eighth notes alone, and the eight "rest" preceding those notes is purely optional. However, in the scores of Op. 67 that I've seen, there is an eighth rest preceding the famous "three Gs".

[Sorrano]

Michael, musical notation does not require that any rests are shown prior to the first notes in the first measure. The "pickup" in this case could be shown as three eighth notes alone, and the eight "rest" preceding those notes is purely optional. However, in the scores of Op. 67 that I've seen, there is an eighth rest preceding the famous "three Gs".

My understanding of that is that when the first measure is incomplete, lacking a beat, half-beat, or whatever, that it is compensated for in the final measure. And, yes, the first measure begins with a rest.

[Sorrano]

This is the wonder of that opening! Is there a rest, or is it a triplet? Until the fifth bar no-one can truly say. Beethoven was an absolute master of the "off-beat". For an example (and excuse the sarcasm), consider the second theme (rather second theme group) that some here call "feminine" in the 1st movement of the Eroica.

Before I saw the score I always thought those were triplets. If the work is performed effectively the E-flat is really emphasized simply by the momentum of the three notes coming off the half-beat.

[Michael]

Thanks, all. I don't have a score and I no longer have the vinyl recording so I'm glad to know my memory wasn't playing tricks. John Suchet and Charles Hazelwood had a bit of a discussion about this last year just before a Proms performance of the Fifth.

[Bonn1827]

Sorrano, I'm confused. Are you referring to anacrusis, because your discussion about rests etc. is not my understanding of the term. Clarification anyone?

[Peter]

Sorrano, I'm confused. Are you referring to anacrusis, because your discussion about rests etc. is not my understanding of the term. Clarification anyone?

The 5th symphony doesn't start on a main beat - there is a quaver rest on the main first beat before those famous opening notes. People who hear the rhythm as a triplet are not feeling the first beat and are mishearing an accent on the first quaver thus presenting aurally as a triplet.

[Sorrano]

Sorrano, I'm confused. Are you referring to anacrusis, because your discussion about rests etc. is not my understanding of the term. Clarification anyone?

Sorry for not being clear. Basically, what I am saying is that when a piece starts with an incomplete measure, for example, the first beat is missing or there is just a pick-up note to start the piece, that the final measure will be the "make up" beats that were missing in the first.

[Bonn1827]

Anacrusis means that the start of the piece is in practical terms the last beat/s of the last measure. So, the incomplete first bar is a LEFTOVER of the final one, and the piece starts on the upbeat therefore, providing a stronger emphasis on the first (complete) bar. It's what you were suggesting Sorrano, only the other way around. Anacrusis relates directly to the first/last measures and functions as a kind of Appogiatura, if that makes sense.

[Sorrano]

I'd not thought of this in terms of an appogiatura. That makes perfect sense; thanks for pointing that out!

[Michael]

Anacrusis means that the start of the piece is in practical terms the last beat/s of the last measure. So, the incomplete first bar is a LEFTOVER of the final one, and the piece starts on the upbeat therefore, providing a stronger emphasis on the first (complete) bar. It's what you were suggesting Sorrano, only the other way around. Anacrusis relates directly to the first/last measures and functions as a kind of Appogiatura, if that makes sense.

I thought Ana Crusis was the Immortal Beloved.

[Peter]

I'd not thought of this in terms of an appogiatura. That makes perfect sense; thanks for pointing that out!

Does it? The appoggiatura or leaning note has a strong-weak rhythm and generally (not always) forms a dissonance taking half the value of the resolving note. Now there are various different interpretations of the ornament but it always steals the emphasis from the main note which follows softly (usually being a resolution). This hardly describes the opening of the 5th symphony and I think upbeat is a better term.

[Bonn1827]

Point taken, Peter. I had forgotten that the leading note is always dissonant, but the concept of the accent on the new note is really what I was getting at. I should have put "functioning something like an appogiatura, if you will". I haven't seen the score in question and knew there wouldn't BE an appogiatura, but was describing it in terms of the note value of the opening bar correlating to that of the closing measure. Oh, forget it!!

[Peter]

Point taken, Peter. I had forgotten that the leading note is always dissonant, but the concept of the accent on the new note is really what I was getting at. I should have put "functioning something like an appogiatura, if you will". I haven't seen the score in question and knew there wouldn't BE an appogiatura, but was describing it in terms of the note value of the opening bar correlating to that of the closing measure. Oh, forget it!!

It doesn't always have to be dissonant (but usually is) - the point is the rhythm strong/weak - the opening to the 5th is weak going to strong on the long note.

[Michael]

It's a huge tribute to Beethoven that one bar of his music, which everyone knows (or thinks so) can cause so much discussion.