I've just bought Brendel's Schubert Complete Impromptus and whilst I was listening I wondered if LvB had known any of his music. My response was, well he would never have HEARD ANY OF IT!! This made me sad. It's hard to believe that this contemporary of LvB wrote music which was so different to that of the master, yet Die Spaten Klaviersonaten do resemble those by Beethoven. Does anybody know whether Beethoven and Schubert had any kind of musical association, what the master thought of Franz Peter etc? I know Schubert was a pallbearer, but what I'm getting is what impact, if any, did FPS music have on LvB?
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I don't think Schubert's music had any influence on Beethoven. There are stories of Beethoven looking at and appreciating Schubert's music, but even if accurate, he would have been near the end of his life at that point and occupied with his own final ideas. Other than that, they moved in different social circles and probably did not have much personal contact with one another. -
It has always struck me as strange that Schubert was unknown to Beethoven living in such proximity as they did. Schubert's songs at least were attracting favourable attention with positive reviews in 1822 from the Vienna Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung. Schubert is supposed to have chickened out of a visit to Beethoven in 1822 when he was to present the newly published Variations on a song 'Reposez-vous, bon chevalier' that he had dedicated to Beethoven 'by his admirer and worshipper, Franz Schubert.'
Then there is the mutual association they both had with people such as the Huttenbrenners and Grillparzer that could and should have led to their meeting - weird!'Man know thyself'Comment
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I agree, Peter, as they were in a relatively closed musical environment - Vienna in those days. I didn't mean to suggest that Schubert "influenced" Beethoven, but word would have been about Vienna about Schubert as he is clearly a magnificent, important composer by any standards. His responses to the sonata form, for example, were clearly moving in a different direction to Beethoven AT THE SAME TIME. Also, his symphonies strike out and grow in complexity just as LvB's did. I can't believe LvB didn't know about this, setting aside any personal or professional jealousies that might have existed. Schubert's music is complex and often profound, but the saddest thing of all is that, even if he'd had the opportunity, Beethoven was never to HEAR this. So the move to Romanticism was going on OUTSIDE the Beethoven household at the same time that LvB was exploring the outer reaches of the sonata-form solar system. These finally had become for LvB academic exercises and, as is the case with JSB, nothing less than profoundly musical.Comment
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Yes I agree with this - I think the key is Beethoven's deafness and I think consequently he had little interest in the musical world outside his own rooms!Originally posted by Bonn1827 View Post'Man know thyself'Comment
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Schubert and Beethoven
it may be that beethoven's music influenced schubert rather than any possible way around.
one of the most startling examples of what may have been the beethoven influence is the Schubert string quartet subtitled 'Death and the Maiden'. It seems to evoke numerous resemblances to Beethoven's string quartet subtitled 'Serioso'.
See further the Youtube performance of the Schubert work at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0rXM...eature=related
and also the beethoven opus 95 at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKuj4LusKaUMust it be? It must be!Comment
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Schubert was only known within a rather small circle within Vienna, and professionally I think only the Schuppanzigh-quartet was a link between Schubert and B.
It is interesting to browse through the conversation booklets [Konversations Hefte, KH] for information regarding other composers. Spohr, Czerny and von Weber appear, most of the time in (very) negative comments by friends of B.'s.
Schubert was discussed as well, but given his minor position his name was merely "touched".
Between June 15th and 22nd 1823 a little discussion with the nephew on composers took place (KH no.34, fol.18v.).
Man lobt den Schubert sehr
(people laud Schubert considerably)
Er sagt aber, der soll sich verstecken
(He however says, that he should hide)
....... (Beethoven's reply, unknown to us)
Was hältest du von Vorisek?
(What do you think of Vorisek?)
......
etc.
On December 20th 1823 Schindler only mentions the production of Schubert's Rosamunde (KH no.50, fol.4v), no further comments by anyone to follow.
Between April 23rd and the end of April 1824 -i.e. during the preparations for the premiere of the Ninth- Schindler writes:
Bester! Kümmert Euch gar nicht um mich wegen des Kampfes mit Weber. Schubert und ich haben den rechten Mann vor uns (KH no.3 fol.38r)
(My dear! Don't worry about me because of the fight with Weber. Schubert and I know we have the backing of the right man) [B's friends accused CM von Weber of plagiarizing bits from Fidelio in his Freischütz].
What Beethoven answered is as usual unknown, but Schindler continues:
Von Ihren Aeusserungen soll nichts laut werden
(From what you are saying nothing will become public), which implies that B's reply most likely was not very encouraging regarding Weber.
Between the end of March and April 8th 1826 Karl Holz mentions Schubert and Erlkönig explicitly (KH no.107 fol.73r):
Schubert war soeben bey ihm . Sie haben einder Händelschen Partitur gelesen.
(Schubert visited him a moment ago {him: i.e. Hofrat Von Mosel, living literally around the corner from Beethoven at that time}. They went through a score by Handel.)
....
Für Lieder hat er viel Auffassungsgabe
(He has a great feeling for songs)
...
Kennen Sie den Erlkönig?
(Do you know his Erlkönig?)
[followed by a change of subject]
And that's it. No further mentioning of Schubert by anyone (at least not in the booklets which have survived).
In Beethoven's correspondence not one single mentioning of Schubert occurs.
Therefore Schubert's name and some of his works were known, but it would be a gross exaggeration to say that Schubert was on everyone's tongue within B's circle.Comment
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Schubert's Great C Major symphony quotes Beethoven's 9th. I am sure Schubert was in awe of Beethoven. I say that with the utmost respect, as I love Schubert’s music. As they say in this part of the world, he was no slouch
BTW, I don't see any resemblance at all between the Quartetto Serioso (Op. 95) and the "Death and the Maiden" quartet. I do love them both, but besides the obvious beauty, energy and genius, I don't think they are similar.ZevyComment
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That was very insightful, Roehre. This is precisely what I was wanting to know. You've obviously got first hand knowledge of the conversations books and my fledgling Deutsch makes me envious of this! Perhaps the late, great musicologist HC Robbins Landon also has some comments on this subject in his books on Beethoven. I think there are two, but which one is the best? I adore Schubert's music and consider him superior to all other 19th century composers (not to downplay any of them either!). He excelled in all forms. Schubert's "An die Musik" perfectly captures my feelings on the whole subject. I want it played at my funeral!Comment
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I didn't mean superior to Beethoven, though!!Comment
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In April 1822, Schubert tried to visit Beethoven but Beethoven was not at home. So, Schubert left a copy of his variations on a French song with a servant. Schubert would later hear through Huttenbrenner that Beethoven enjoyed the variations and played them frequently with his nephew Karl.
In December 1826, Beethoven was shown a collection of 60 songs by Schubert. For several days, Beethoven could not separate himself from them. With great enthusiasm he cried out repeatedly: "Truly, a divine spark dwells in Schubert."
Beethoven seemed to like Schubert's music."Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"Comment
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Both those stories are rather anecdotal - I doubt karl was capable of playing the variations and the last story is from Schindler, say no more!Originally posted by Hofrat View Post'Man know thyself'Comment
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There are many examples of Beethoven's music (and Mozart's) serving as a model for Schubert - often he would use the structure of a piece rather than the melodic content such as Beethoven's op.31/1 rondo which serves as a model for the finale of Schubert's late A major sonata.Originally posted by Ateach Asc View Post'Man know thyself'Comment
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According to Schubert's brother Ferdinand Franz met Beethoven more than once. Apart from the 1827 visit, no independent confirmation of this exists, and please note that Schubert himself said that unfortunately they didn't.Originally posted by Peter View Post
Rochlitz thought both composers met in Baden in the summer of 1822. Again: not independent other confirmation of such a meeting has come down to us.
Only Schubert's visit to Beethoven during his last illnes has been independently confirmed by two people, Hüttenbrenner as well as Schindler (The latter is NOT ALWAYS untrustworthy
).
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