a theme?

[Preston]

What exactly is a theme and what does it do?

Take as an example the Eroica themes. I understand that there are two themes. Is one is the main theme? I then hear these themes repeated throughout the first movement. I hear these themes repeated on different notes, different octaves, in different ways, different instruments take up the theme, etc.

To my understanding the theme is the backbone of a work done in sonata form?

Why do they repeat the same theme throughout a movement, or, even bring it into other movements?

I was listening to a Bach piece that was almost like a theme repeated at a very fast tempo over and over, on so many changed keys. Then I started thinking more clearly than usual that a lot of classical does this, and, began really wondering why? This is what prompted this post.

Thanks for any help.

[Chris]

From wikipedia:

In music, a theme is the material, usually a recognizable melody, upon which part or all of a composition is based. It may be perceivable as a complete musical expression in itself, separate from the work in which it is found (Drabkin 2001). In contrast to an "idea" or "motif", a theme is usually a complete phrase or period (Dunsby 2002). The Encyclopédie Fasquelle (Michel 1958–61) defines a theme as "Any element, motif, or small musical piece that has given rise to some variation becomes thereby a theme."

A movement in sonata form typically has two themes, a primary theme and a secondary theme. The secondary theme is in the dominant or other related key and in generally more feminine. There could be a transitional theme between these two, however, or a closing theme at the end, or other variations. One theme or more will then be developed in the development section, and then the themes will return in their original forms in the recapitulation, the secondary theme generally being in the tonic key this time.

What's the point? It gives you a central idea, an anchor for the movement, and a point of departure for development.

They play different roles in other forms.

[Preston]

Thanks Chris. Fascinating.

Yes, I feel pretty damn stupid, because, I have been listening to classical for around 8 years, and, very devoutly- yet, I did not even fully understand the complete and absolute significance of themes.

I had a moment of solid clarity about a theme, and, really began to wonder more.

Part of me is confused by trying to understand- why would a great composer use a theme or themes for an entire work, instead of just letting the feelings flow?

Though, I imagine that the theme, or feeling or thought, is something so important that they would not let it go? For instance, a feeling so moving that it must not be let go. It must be touched on in every way that the composer can. Or likewise, a feeling of utmost significance and importance. Is this correct?

Really unbelieveable, how a theme can make an entire foundation for the movement or piece!

[Preston]

Knowing about the theme has already helped my understanding of Classical.

And, I may finally get lessons with a solid teacher. I talked with him today, he is the proffesor of music theory at a college, with a good music department. He said that he might be able to teach some this summer, when he has some free time. Ha!

[Peter]

Thanks Chris. Fascinating.

Yes, I feel pretty damn stupid, because, I have been listening to classical for around 8 years, and, very devoutly- yet, I did not even fully understand the complete and absolute significance of themes.

I had a moment of solid clarity about a theme, and, really began to wonder more.

Part of me is confused by trying to understand- why would a great composer use a theme or themes for an entire work, instead of just letting the feelings flow?

Though, I imagine that the theme, or feeling or thought, is something so important that they would not let it go? For instance, a feeling so moving that it must not be let go. It must be touched on in every way that the composer can. Or likewise, a feeling of utmost significance and importance. Is this correct?

Really unbelieveable, how a theme can make an entire foundation for the movement or piece!

A theme is basically a melody or a motiff. Beethoven's 5th symphony first movement provides a perfect example of how an entire movement can be built on a very small motiff such as ..._

In sonata form there are generally two contrasting themes (tunes, melodies, motiffs, ideas!). In the Beethoven 5th example he combines the rhythmic element of the opening motiff with his more lyrical second theme. In fact he uses that opening rhythm to unify the whole symphony as it occurs throughout.

If a great composer just let the feelings flow he would have chaos - everything has to be organised into some kind of order and Beethoven was the master of that - we call it form.

[Chaszz]

In visual art the theme may be a certain plastic element, such as an arabesque (an "S" curve) or a triangle. This may be stated in a large way and then possibly may be varied in other ways throughout the work. This can be seen in Ingres' "Grande Odalisque"

http://cgfa.acropolisinc.com/ingres/p-ingres8.htm

where the main theme is the large arabesque S-curve of the entire body, which is then varied and opposed by the large semicircle formed by the head, neck, arm, and curving fold of the blue curtain. These two themes are opposed and at the same time joined almost exactly like the two themes in a sonata movement. (Of course there is also a lot more going on here, both with curves and verticals, which echo one another and which you may like to look for.)

In literature, the theme may be a moral or plot element which dominates the work. In the Iliad, the theme is the anger of Achilles. He is denied a slave girl by the leader Agammemnon and decides to withhold his fighting skills. Sulking in his tent, he disdains to go into battle; without his support his lover Patrocles is killed, to Achilles' great lasting sorrow. This theme is announced at the very beginning of the poem, where the poet says he will sing of the anger of Achilles (NOT of the Trojan War itself which is often thought incorrectly to be the main theme of the work).

[Sorrano]

Preston, if someone asked you to hum or whistle the theme to Ode to Joy you would do it in a heartbeat without considering what is a theme. Well, that is an example.

[Preston]

Yes, I hear the themes used throughout a movement- from most pieces I am familiar with. I just didn't know exactly what a theme was, nor, how important it apparently is. I just knew that I heard themes repeated time and time again.

Now, I see it is the backbone and foundation of the entire movement or even piece!

[Sorrano]

I would have supposed a "feminine" secondary theme might be one that is not in the expected key, such as the subdominant in a piece of a major tonality, or the submediant in a minor key.

[Preston]

LvB, The Eroica - first theme : broken E-flat triad/arpeggio, with a naughty drop to C-sharp.

Are both themes not presented before the drop to C-sharp?

[Chris]

Not wishing to create a stink, as it were, but I am curious about terminology such as "feminine secondary themes". Might this be one of those "received ideas" (i.e. a term first used in late 19th and early 20th-century music theory books that is still perpetuated today)? I suppose describing the second theme in first-movement sonata form as "lyrical" is an improvement, but even here it is an unhelpful term, if by lyrical we take it to mean "song-like". I do accept though, that the second theme is normally to be considered as a "contrasting" one. And I also agree that it is very hard to talk or write about music with suitable or appropriate vocabulary.

It seems like a term that fits well to me. Frequently the secondary theme is more delicate and softer. Lyricism might come along with that, but I don't think it is an essential part of it. This might be more applicable to fast movements in sonata form, though, since it makes sense to contrast the primary theme of a fast movement (which will probably be fast and strong) with something more delicate.

[Preston]

In visual art the theme may be a certain plastic element, such as an arabesque (an "S" curve) or a triangle. This may be stated in a large way and then possibly may be varied in other ways throughout the work. This can be seen in Ingres' "Grande Odalisque"

http://cgfa.acropolisinc.com/ingres/p-ingres8.htm

where the main theme is the large arabesque S-curve of the entire body, which is then varied and opposed by the large semicircle formed by the head, neck, arm, and curving fold of the blue curtain. These two themes are opposed and at the same time joined almost exactly like the two themes in a sonata movement. (Of course there is also a lot more going on here, both with curves and verticals, which echo one another and which you may like to look for.)

Thanks Chaszz. I am sure you are right, yet, I wonder how you can tell that the visual artists used a theme in the picturesque? How do you know that the aritst didn't just use an "arabesque" with no theme involved?

[Preston]

Are both themes not presented before the drop to C-sharp?

I uploaded an example of what I am talking about.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=941198

Here, also, is this website which gives a thorough analysis.

http://www.beethovenseroica.com/Pg3_anal/1mov/1m03.htm

It would make sense to me that those are both themes, because, Beethoven uses the first four notes too express thoughts or feelings after them, then uses the next four too express thoughts or feelings after them in an entirely different way, throughout the 1st movement and in many different ways.

[Chaszz]

Thanks Chaszz. I am sure you are right, yet, I wonder how you can tell that the visual artists used a theme in the picturesque? How do you know that the aritst didn't just use an "arabesque" with no theme involved?

I'm not sure what you mean in the the first sentence; perhaps you mean how do I know the artist used a theme in a represetntatiional painting, i.e., a picture of nature.

The answer to this and the question in your second sentence is just experience; having looked at so many pictures and analysed their forms, I just "know" when an artist is using a visual shape as a theme. It has been remarked several times that this pose is not only awkward but impossible to assume. Ingres was a highly realistic painter. For him to use a tortuous, unnatural pose like this means almost unmistakeably that he was fascinated with the s-curve and made it the main shape in the painting by twisting the body to fit it. Then, the lining up of the head, neck, shoulder and curtain fold to make a semicircle means that the theme of curvature was still on his mind.

Many artists have used simple large shapes or movements such as curves, s-curves, triangles, verticals and horizontals to contruct their works upon. Sometimes these themes are partly hidden. Often, hidden or plain, they are the result of compound elements, as here when the shape of the curtain fold continues the curve of the arm. The use of these abstract elements is one reason why non-objective or abstract art can be seen to flow somewhat naturally from the representational art of past times, because the abstract forms were importantly there all along.

[Preston]

I'm not sure what you mean in the the first sentence; perhaps you mean how do I know the artist used a theme in a represetntatiional painting, i.e., a picture of nature.

The answer to this and the question in your second sentence is just experience; having looked at so many pictures and analysed their forms, I just "know" when an artist is using a visual shape as a theme. It has been remarked several times that this pose is not only awkward but impossible to assume. Ingres was a highly realistic painter. For him to use a tortuous, unnatural pose like this means almost unmistakeably that he was fascinated with the s-curve and made it the main shape in the painting by twisting the body to fit it. Then, the lining up of the head, neck, shoulder and curtain fold to make a semicircle means that the theme of curvature was still on his mind.

Many artists have used simple large shapes or movements such as curves, s-curves, triangles, verticals and horizontals to contruct their works upon. Sometimes these themes are partly hidden. Often, hidden or plain, they are the result of compound elements, as here when the shape of the curtain fold continues the curve of the arm. The use of these abstract elements is one reason why non-objective or abstract art can be seen to flow somewhat naturally from the representational art of past times, because the abstract forms were importantly there all along.

Thanks for that Chaszz.

Even after reading your posts, and, understanding how important a theme is-I am guessing that an artist like Van Gogh highly relied on form and themes?

By the way, thanks to the forum members for not jumping on me because I did not know what a theme was. I appreciate all of your kindness and generosity.