Beethoven Anecdotes

[Quijote]

As your Doctor (of music), I prescribe more Beethoven, though only specific works which I shall send to your chemist (CD supplier) shortly.
Hey, did you know that Avatar has just been released here in France on DVD? How does that compare to the full 3D version?

[Preston]

Hey, did you know that Avatar has just been released here in France on DVD? How does that compare to the full 3D version?

I bought it on Blu-Ray recently and have watched it in 1080p on a 47" tv. The 3D is good, though it is still good without 3D. The 3D makes a difference but watching it in 1080p is not so bad, at all. Quite clear in 1080p.

[Tillyvalle]

Thank you for that link Preston. The Jeremy Siepmann book is where I first saw the Torggler painting. My daughter absolutely hates it but I find it compelling. I think you're right that Beethoven's suffering seems to be depicted in it. I have never really liked the Steiler portrait, to me there's something not quite real about it.

[Preston]

Thank you for that link Preston. The Jeremy Siepmann book is where I first saw the Torggler painting. My daughter absolutely hates it but I find it compelling. I think you're right that Beethoven's suffering seems to be depicted in it. I have never really liked the Steiler portrait, to me there's something not quite real about it.

The Siepmann book is also where I first saw it. I agree, the Steiler is unrealistic and looks like somekind of fanciful caricature!

[Preston]

My favourite story is about how Archduke Rudolph decreed that the rules of court decorum did not apply to Beethoven!

Tillyvalle, could you provide us with the account, by chance?

[Tillyvalle]

This is where I read it.

http://www.classicaltv.com/the-infor...n-classical-tv

[Preston]

There is an account that, imo, shows a much different side of Beethoven than what is commonly thought - and it really reminds me more of Beethoven the human-being. I've read it in Thayer, though cannot remember where it was at. I want to type it up and was hoping that someone could point me in the right direction, such as the year, in Thayer's book. I'm pretty sure it was in his last period, and that is pretty much it.

The anecdote regards Beethoven riding in a somekind of carriage with someone (a friend?) and leaving him money on the seat, then running off laughing in what in what the friend said was like a mad-child who played an unbelievable joke, or something like that?

Thanks.

[Fidelio]

Is this not a follow on from the story about Beethoven's arrest in Baden in 1820 for being a tramp? Herzog, the musical director of Wiener Neustadt, was fetched to identify him. Herzog saw the tramp and identified Beethoven. The comedy ended by Herzog entertaining Beethoven at his house and the Commissioner sending the guest home next morning in the magisterial state-coach…….......

[Preston]

Is this not a follow on from the story about Beethoven's arrest in Baden in 1820 for being a tramp? Herzog, the musical director of Wiener Neustadt, was fetched to identify him. Herzog saw the tramp and identified Beethoven. The comedy ended by Herzog entertaining Beethoven at his house and the Commissioner sending the guest home next morning in the magisterial state-coach…….......

I am pretty sure it was a different story, but am not sure? So, I will have to look into it some more.

I remember the "friend" saying that if anyone else would have left the money there in the seat next to him he would have been offended but because it was Beethoven he was not (the friend must have been a little tight to be offended, etc - but I guess Beethoven knew that, and that may be a root of the prank).

It is neat because Beethoven (well at least to his mind) had played a great prank, setup, trick, etc. - and thought he had got him or knew he had done something, and then ran off the carriage laughing and RUNNING, lol, like a mad-child!

[Preston]

A little while ago I spent around 30+ minutes searching Thayer's book on google books - with no luck. I typed in all the words I could think. So now I think it may be from another book - Solomon's or Morris' - or I somehow unconsciously made it up? Sorry to anyone who attempted to find it Thayer.

[Preston]

IF this beethovenian admission is genuine (which I am convinced it is, as AFAIK it has come to us through Schindler, and HE was greatly admiring the Ninth's finale), then we might have got a substitute finale of the same power and ingeniuity as the first three movements, especially the openings movement.
But unfortunately.....

Roehre, I know that you find the iv mov. of the 9th to be lacking and weak. I am not saying it is not. Though, I wanted to mention a few thoughts:

1. Imo, Beethoven was as deep and true of an artist as any. I think he knew perfectly well about the response the iv mov. would cause - and not just then but as long as it existed. So, believing those things, I think it is just as brilliant, genius, etc. as the other 3 movements.

2. I think the ode is a cry, and at the same time, a glorious testament to humanity (human-beings) - no matter how weak, no matter how strong, now matter what you are like, etc. - let us rejoice for there is to much pain - just let us rejoice, and let us become one.

3. Weakness is part of what we are, and perhaps what we consist of - and what we are.

4. I do not know if because it is catchy if it bothers you? Though, sometimes I will sit and just play the individual notes of the "ode" and for some reason - I love it, given the moment.

5. Also, the iv mov. is diverse, also. There is darkness, there is light, there is weakness, there is strength, etc. So to call it weak, alludes me?

6. Beethoven's mind was what is called genius - not "average". He knew. Oh, he knew!

There are other things I could write, and I think I have left out some main points. But, imo, a large portion of humanity is weak and insane, insecure and jealous. Beethoven know this, and greatly, imo.

So yes, I believe the iv mov. is a sublime part of Beethoven wanting humanity to rejoice, through fairness and equality.

Also, weakness can be a beautiful thing, and not only that, often time is. The smallest being can make the largest difference.

Please explain in some detail, if you don't mind, why you are not liking the iv mov. of the 9th? Thanks if you do, , and no worries if you don't.

[Fidelio]

Try pages 861-2, Thayer/Forbes Part two.........(1823).
Journey with Grillparzer who paid a visit to Beethoven at Hetzendorf with Schindler.

[Grillparzer's 'Erinnerungen an Beethoven']

…….”When I drove back to town without Schindler, who remained in Hetzendorf, Beethoven insisted on accompanying me. He sat himself beside me in the open carriage, but instead of going only to the edge of the village, he drove with me to the city, getting out at the gates and after a cordial handshake starting back alone on the journey of an hour and a half homeward. As he left the carriage, I noticed a bit of paper lying on the seat which he had just been vacated. I thought that he had forgotten it and beckoned him to come back; but he shook his head and with a loud laugh, as at the success of the ruse, he run the faster in the opposite direction. I unrolled the paper and it contained exactly the amount of the carriage-hire which I had agreed upon with the driver. His manner of life had so estranged him from the habits and customs of the world that it probably never occurred to him that under other circumstances he would have been guilty of a gross offence. I took the matter as it was intended and laughingly paid my coachman with the money which had been given me”.

[Preston]

Thanks Fidelio, you always come through on these type of questions, . I will pull out Thayer at some and read it - because I am curious.

I apologize Roehre, I was somewhat rude and sarcastic because you chose not to reply - that was wrong of me and not the way to handle it. It is just that I get confused that you are not fond of the iv mov. of the 9th, while at the same time you listen to "music" that I do not even consider music, so to say?

[painter_mindscapes]

This is where I read it.

http://www.classicaltv.com/the-infor...n-classical-tv

wow this is my new favorite link.

[Roehre]

Roehre, I know that you find the iv mov. of the 9th to be lacking and weak. I am not saying it is not. Though, I wanted to mention a few thoughts:

1. Imo, Beethoven was as deep and true of an artist as any. I think he knew perfectly well about the response the iv mov. would cause - and not just then but as long as it existed. So, believing those things, I think it is just as brilliant, genius, etc. as the other 3 movements.

2. I think the ode is a cry, and at the same time, a glorious testament to humanity (human-beings) - no matter how weak, no matter how strong, now matter what you are like, etc. - let us rejoice for there is to much pain - just let us rejoice, and let us become one.

3. Weakness is part of what we are, and perhaps what we consist of - and what we are.

4. I do not know if because it is catchy if it bothers you? Though, sometimes I will sit and just play the individual notes of the "ode" and for some reason - I love it, given the moment.

5. Also, the iv mov. is diverse, also. There is darkness, there is light, there is weakness, there is strength, etc. So to call it weak, alludes me?

6. Beethoven's mind was what is called genius - not "average". He knew. Oh, he knew!

There are other things I could write, and I think I have left out some main points. But, imo, a large portion of humanity is weak and insane, insecure and jealous. Beethoven know this, and greatly, imo.

So yes, I believe the iv mov. is a sublime part of Beethoven wanting humanity to rejoice, through fairness and equality.

Also, weakness can be a beautiful thing, and not only that, often time is. The smallest being can make the largest difference.

Please explain in some detail, if you don't mind, why you are not liking the iv mov. of the 9th? Thanks if you do, , and no worries if you don't.

Preston,

though I am not a great fan of finale 9 I don't think it is a weak work.

It is not the quality of the mvt, but its place as concluding mvt of an otherwise emotionally and technically nearly insurpassable set of three mvts which I find difficult to digest. Compared with the 1st mvt the finale for me feels like a kind of damp squib.

My objections against it are mainly musical reasons: just to mention the fact that in the present situation two variation mvts follow each other immediately.

Beethoven himself had his doubts about finishing the Ninth with this finale too, after the first performance that is.

To get an impression what the instrumental finale of the Ninth migth have sounded: the finale of the quartet opus 132 is for an important part based on sketches for such a finale, even including an allusion to the recitative of the present vocal one.

To place the present vocal finale in its musical surroundings: listen to the arrangement Liszt made of it for piano-2-hands, integrating the vocal parts into the pianosound.
This sound world is very similar to the one we find in the Diabelli variations.
But the same applies to the 3rd mvt, thoug obviously a double variation set, based on themes not directly related to the "Freuden"-melody which acts as theme for the finale.
This clarifies why IMO two variation sets concluding the Ninth is a kind of miscalculation.

There are hardly 2 variation sets following each other to be found in a sonata or symphonic work elsewhere in the music literature, let alone in Beethoven's own musical output (though op.27/1 comes near, but that IS a "quasi fantasia").