Beethoven Anecdotes

[Peter]

Preston,

though I am not a great fan of finale 9 I don't think it is a weak work.

It is not the quality of the mvt, but its place as concluding mvt of an otherwise emotionally and technically nearly insurpassable set of three mvts which I find difficult to digest. Compared with the 1st mvt the finale for me feels like a kind of damp squib.

My objections against it are mainly musical reasons: just to mention the fact that in the present situation two variation mvts follow each other immediately.

Beethoven himself had his doubts about finishing the Ninth with this finale too, after the first performance that is.

To get an impression what the instrumental finale of the Ninth migth have sounded: the finale of the quartet opus 132 is for an important part based on sketches for such a finale, even including an allusion to the recitative of the present vocal one.

To place the present vocal finale in its musical surroundings: listen to the arrangement Liszt made of it for piano-2-hands, integrating the vocal parts into the pianosound.
This sound world is very similar to the one we find in the Diabelli variations.
But the same applies to the 3rd mvt, thoug obviously a double variation set, based on themes not directly related to the "Freuden"-melody which acts as theme for the finale.
This clarifies why IMO two variation sets concluding the Ninth is a kind of miscalculation.

There are hardly 2 variation sets following each other to be found in a sonata or symphonic work elsewhere in the music literature, let alone in Beethoven's own musical output (though op.27/1 comes near, but that IS a "quasi fantasia").

I think the ground-breaking originality of a choral finale to a symphony far outweighs other considerations - you might equally argue that Beethoven could have got round the two successive variation movement issue by simply placing the Adagio second and the Scherzo third.

[Preston]

Preston,

though I am not a great fan of finale 9 I don't think it is a weak work.

It is not the quality of the mvt, but its place as concluding mvt of an otherwise emotionally and technically nearly insurpassable set of three mvts which I find difficult to digest. Compared with the 1st mvt the finale for me feels like a kind of damp squib.

My objections against it are mainly musical reasons: just to mention the fact that in the present situation two variation mvts follow each other immediately.

Beethoven himself had his doubts about finishing the Ninth with this finale too, after the first performance that is.

To get an impression what the instrumental finale of the Ninth migth have sounded: the finale of the quartet opus 132 is for an important part based on sketches for such a finale, even including an allusion to the recitative of the present vocal one.

To place the present vocal finale in its musical surroundings: listen to the arrangement Liszt made of it for piano-2-hands, integrating the vocal parts into the pianosound.
This sound world is very similar to the one we find in the Diabelli variations.
But the same applies to the 3rd mvt, thoug obviously a double variation set, based on themes not directly related to the "Freuden"-melody which acts as theme for the finale.
This clarifies why IMO two variation sets concluding the Ninth is a kind of miscalculation.

There are hardly 2 variation sets following each other to be found in a sonata or symphonic work elsewhere in the music literature, let alone in Beethoven's own musical output (though op.27/1 comes near, but that IS a "quasi fantasia").

Roehre, first glad to have you back, .

I don't like saying this, but, imo, there is absolutely no point in questioning the technical side of the work. Beethoven was musically (in the sense of feeling and technicality) brilliant beyond pretty much what most composers can even begin to imagine, imo. So, therefore, I think technically he knew what he was doing - and, to a degree that surpasses any other composer.

If you don't enjoy the feelings and emotions or style of the IV mov from the 9th then that is fine. Though, to try and find technical reasons seems like an endless and pointless attempt in doing so?

Also, yes Beethoven was unsure about the choral - as he even said and wrote - but I think at that point in his life Beethoven was unsure and paranoid about many, many things - and probably blurted out all kinds of things that make little, if any, sense. Nevertheless though, he put the choral part in - and that is the bottom line.

Does that make sense though, about not judging the musicality but only the feelings?

[Peter]

Roehre, first glad to have you back, .



Also, yes Beethoven was unsure about the choral - as he even said and wrote - but I think at that point in his life Beethoven was unsure and paranoid about many, many things - and probably blurted out all kinds of things that make little, if any, sense. Nevertheless though, he put the choral part in - and that is the bottom line.

Does that make sense though, about not judging the musicality but only the feelings?

Beethoven didn't write any such thing and reports that he was unsure of the finale are second hand and from people who themselves didn't think the finale worked. The fact remains that Beethoven in the remaining few years of his life made no plans to change the finale, unlike the Bb quartet Op.130 where he acknowledged (however reluctantly) the arguments put forward for publishing the fugue separately.

[Preston]

Beethoven didn't write any such thing and reports that he was unsure of the finale are second hand and from people who themselves didn't think the finale worked. The fact remains that Beethoven in the remaining few years of his life made no plans to change the finale, unlike the Bb quartet Op.130 where he acknowledged (however reluctantly) the arguments put forward for publishing the fugue separately.

Thanks for the knowledge, and good points.

[painter_mindscapes]

Common one is LvB's brother him a letter and signed it

Gutzbesitzer
Owner of Land

LvB wrote a letter back and signed it

Hirnbesitzer
Owner of Brains

[Sorrano]

Common one is LvB's brother him a letter and signed it

Gutzbesitzer
Owner of Land

LvB wrote a letter back and signed it

Hirnbesitzer
Owner of Brains

Nice!