Opus 125 and Opus 132 connection?

[Bonn1770]

A writer commented on the middle movement of Beethoven's opus 132 at the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-m..._b_371576.html

One of the reader comments is this:

Another amazing aspect of Opus 132 is the Finale, which began life as the ending of the 9th Symphony. Beethoven all but completed an instrumental Finale to the 9th before deciding to try something completely different. Rejecting the original finale may have lead him to conceive of a new finale that recapitulates and rejects the themes from the symphony's earlier movements before turning to the Ode to Joy choral ending. But Beethoven did not throw away his original thoughts. A year after finishing the 9th Symphony, he transposed the symphony's discarded ending from D minor to A minor and recast the material for string quartet -- the themes are essentially the same. The Finale of Opus 132 is incredibly dramatic, haunting music, and in it we can hear an echo of what the Finale of the 9th Symphony might have been like if Beethoven hadn't changed his mind.

Is this true? Did Beethoven really complete a whole another finale for opus 125 and used that material for the opus 132 finale?

[Preston]

I do not understand. Why do you not delete your post in the general discussion forum?

[Roehre]

A writer commented on the middle movement of Beethoven's opus 132 at the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-m..._b_371576.html

Is this true? Did Beethoven really complete a whole another finale for opus 125 and used that material for the opus 132 finale?

Yes, it is true that if we want to get some impression what an instrumental finale of the Ninth symphony might have been, we only have to look at the finale of opus 132.

It is not correct however to assume that the finale of opus 132 as we know it would have been the finale of the symphony, as the instrumental finale was not finished, but only was sketched to some extent.

To make chronology for 132 even a bit more complicated: the Danza Tedesca from 130 was originally intended to be part of 132 (we have to keep in mind here, that 130 was completed after 132, but published before, hence the chronologically misleading opus numbers).

Btw, IMO an instrumental finale to opus 125 based on the 132 material would have been preferable, as following three magnificent movements the finale is a rather weak piece to conclude the Ninth.
These sketches were later then the basis for the string quartet finale.

[Bonn1770]

I do not understand. Why do you not delete your post in the general discussion forum?

I assumed this is the Beethoven forum and the other one is for other general topics. Is that not the case? If not then sorry for the confusion!

[Preston]

Yes Bonn1770 that is the case. Perhaps you are confused? There are two forums, each for different topics, and you have posted the same thread in both. Does that make it clearer perhaps?

[Peter]

I assumed this is the Beethoven forum and the other one is for other general topics. Is that not the case? If not then sorry for the confusion!

Not to worry - all sorted!

[gprengel]

IMO an instrumental finale to opus 125 based on the 132 material would have been preferable, as following three magnificent movements the finale is a rather weak piece to conclude the Ninth.

Why in all the world do you consider the Finale of the 9th a weak Finale???
IMO it is one of the greatest achievements of mankind!!

I also love the finale theme of op. 132 but to me it is just perfect for a string quartett and cannot imagine this theme fitting for an orchestral movement. Can you?

[Michael]

Why in all the world do you consider the Finale of the 9th a weak Finale???
IMO it is one of the greatest achievements of mankind!!

I also love the finale theme of op. 132 but to me it is just perfect for a string quartett and cannot imagine this theme fitting for an orchestral movement. Can you?

There will be arguments until the end of time about the last movement of the Ninth. If Beethoven had finally gone ahead with the Opus 132 theme, we might have a totally different view of the Ninth Symphony and its creator. I don't think it would have made a good European Anthem.

[Preston]

Btw, IMO an instrumental finale to opus 125 based on the 132 material would have been preferable, as following three magnificent movements the finale is a rather weak piece to conclude the Ninth.

I agree with pretty much everything Gerd wrote. I do have a question, is there anyway you could explain why you believe the final movement of the 9th to be weak? I do not imagine Beethoven writing anything weak. Unless it is the Battle Symphony, which he wrote for income, and from what I have read is the worst piece of music he ever wrote, and made his friends think that he might have turned to materialism- which of course was anything but, IMO.

I feel that it is a catchy theme, yet, I feel Beethoven was perfectly aware of this and that making the theme catchy is his whole point- seeing is, I, do not find Beethoven to be catchy. Although, just because the finale of the 9th is cathcy doesn't mean that it doesn't go deeper, far deeper, than a fun jingle, if you will.

"Drunken with fire, to the portal, of thy radiant shrine, we come."

All too true.

[gprengel]

I do not imagine Beethoven writing anything weak. Unless it is the Battle Symphony, which he wrote for income, and from what I have read is the worst piece of music he ever wrote

No, I don't agree! Eventhough this piece might not have the greatness of Tschaikowsky's Battle Overture 1812, nevertheless this work contains wonderful music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gla7M4E17Ho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kot4VhVZ2o&NR=1

What indeed is weak is the piece "Der glorreiche Augenblick" op.136 written together with the Battle symphony which generelly is considered to be Beethoven's weakest music

[Hofrat]

Gerd;

I really like "Der glorreiche Augenblick." I even have the score (albeit a piano reduction of the orchestra). I do not think it is weak. It may not be at the masterpiece level, but it is not weak.

[Preston]

No, I don't agree! Eventhough this piece might not have the greatness of Tschaikowsky's Battle Overture 1812, nevertheless this work contains wonderful music.

No, I don't agree!

I was quoting what I had read. I have read two authors that argue The Battle Symphony was undoubtedly the worst piece of music Beethoven ever wrote, and they are both pretty well studied. I do agree with what his friends say that it was somewhat materialistic, but, only because Beethoven wanted it so- as Beethoven said, "give them something pretty and they will pay".

Although, perhaps weak was the wrong word, because, it was still Beethoven!

To quote:

"The Battle Symphony" is by scholarly consensus the worst pot-boiler Beethoven ever composed, infamous for noise and naiveté.

One cannot blame him for cranking out the kind of big, bland loud things politicians always recognize as Art.

[Roehre]

I agree with pretty much everything Gerd wrote. I do have a question, is there anyway you could explain why you believe the final movement of the 9th to be weak?

I don't believe that the finale of 9 is a weak piece as such, but it is a rather weak piece to conclude a symphony which begins with such an insurpassable movement like 9 I, got a scherzo like 9 II, followed by a double-variation movement like 9 III. IMO it doesn't possess the qualities of these first three movements, and a second variation movement doesn't make the whole of the symphony a stronger work either.

I like the Ode to Joy, but NOT as finale of 9.

[Preston]

Each to their own Roehre, .

Think though that since Beethoven was changing the symphony from what it had been by putting voices in it he had to write the finale in a style suitable for a symphony with voices.

I remember reading something by a Japanese author (of course it was translated to English) and he talked of how strength was not always good. It is our weaknesses that make us who we are, so to say. I would post the story but perhaps at a later date!

I do think that the finale is suitable for the symphony. Ending with a great testament toward humanity and the divinity. IMO, it is truly a sacred piece of music filled with thoughts and feelings of the divine.

[Michael]

The Battle Symphony was written for an occasion, and Beethoven knew the effect it would have. He had no objection to occasionally being number one in the pop charts, in spite of his frequent artistic assertions (which were all genuine). His "Chorus of Dervishes" from the "Ruins of Athens" is a real Turkish rabble-rouser and Beethoven said something to the effect that "this should have them dancing in the aisles".
Something of this type occurs in the march section of the Ninth finale and I think this was a deliberate decision to drop the whole mood from the sacred to the profane. The word "Gott" is thundered out by the whole orchestra and choir. There is a silence and then out of the void comes a piece of wind music (in every sense of the word) from the bassoon. Beethoven seems to be blowing a raspberry at all our preconceived notions about what is right and proper. After all, he seems to be saying, there is as much vulgarity in this world as sublimity. This march ends with the full-blown recapitulation of the "Ode to Joy" theme with all bells and whistles.
A lesser composer would have ended there, but what does Beethoven do?
He banishes the rowdy, secular mood and embarks on a gigantic hymn - the heart and central thought of the entire symphony:
"Kneel before Him, all ye millions" - an amazing blend of classical and modal harmony ending in a beautiful quiet dissonance.
Like the "Grosse Fuge", this movement can stand alone - and has done so (not least at the 2001 last night of the Proms, in the wake of 9/11) but like the string quartet piece, it works best as a finale.