Beethoven's Tenth Symphony

[Hofrat]

With regard to the piano concerto movement in D (Hess 15), Inedita has recorded it very recently.

[makir35]

I think that it sounds like Beethoven in harmony and texture. But it in no way is immortal. It also lacks imagination in development. There were more interesting passages in the Wo87 and WoO 88 cantatas. That being said, I think we can all appreciate the fact that even someone who has studied his life and music for years STILL cannot approach the genius of the Master... and it even makes his completed works that much more a gift.

[gprengel]

The scherzo meant here is most likely not part of the sketches for the tenth symphony. The attribution is by Schindler (see the handwriting on top of the page), who is not the most reliable witness, especially not in musical matters.

Sorry, I can't agree to this. This sketch is written on the same pages like those from the first movement which definitivly belong to the 10th symphony and they have the same key (c-minor). It is not very probable that he writes at the same time sketches for two different works in the same key.

[Roehre]

Sorry, I can't agree to this. This sketch is written on the same pages like those from the first movement which definitivly belong to the 10th symphony and they have the same key (c-minor). It is not very probable that he writes at the same time sketches for two different works in the same key.

A c-minor Scherzo following an E-flat/c-minor 1st movement?
The A-flat sketch for a slow mvt makes sense. The scherzo as it stands would mean Beethoven repeating the key-scheme of op.67. Not improbable, but IMO together with the fact that it is Schindler who has "discovered" this scherzo makes the attribution to the Tenth questionable.

Btw, Who has got a copy of Barry Cooper's article "Newly identified sketches for Beethoven's Tenth" for me, as I seem to have mislaid my photocopy of it [Music and Letters 66 (1985) 9-18] ?

[Hofrat]

I found an interesting argument in favor of "completions" on another forum that I contribute to:

"Listening to completions is facultative. For me, I'm *always* interested in how pieces might have sounded. Music is a creative enterprise, and a completion (or 'elaboration') just shows one musical contingency. So bring on the Beethoven 10ths, the Bruckner 9ths, Mahler 10ths, Schubert 8ths, Elgar 3rds, and others!!"

[Peter]

I found an interesting argument in favor of "completions" on another forum that I contribute to:

"Listening to completions is facultative. For me, I'm *always* interested in how pieces might have sounded. Music is a creative enterprise, and a completion (or 'elaboration') just shows one musical contingency. So bring on the Beethoven 10ths, the Bruckner 9ths, Mahler 10ths, Schubert 8ths, Elgar 3rds, and others!!"

I'm not sure that is a good argument - we might as well take the sketches to Beethoven's 5th and present an 'alternative 5th' or any other work and it seems to me that is where we are heading.

[Roehre]

I'm not sure that is a good argument - we might as well take the sketches to Beethoven's 5th and present an 'alternative 5th' or any other work and it seems to me that is where we are heading.

Which is exactly what Bernstein showed us in elaborating and orchestrating some of the sketches for 5 i. I find them very interesting, and it shows what choices Beethoven has made to eventually create the masterpiece as we know it. But this doesn't mean it is a bad argument, as IMO it is always beneficial to extend knowledge of artists' creative worlds and processes (that includes the visual arts and literature) by (re)constructing their masterpieces. And of course it serves one of those human properties: being curious.

The artist's impressions based on sketchy material vary between completing a nearly complete full draft score (Bruckner 9 or Tchaikovsky 7), through adding orchestrations to otherwise complete movements (Schubert 7 D729), orchestrations of draft scores (Schubert 10 D.936a) or piano reductions (Beethoven WoO 4), elaborating a complete continuity sketch (Mahler 10), putting sketches together which are more or less complete and marked as such (Elgar 3, Puccini's Turandot, Busoni's Faust), creating a score based on presumptive sketches of a work (Beethoven 10), to composing completely new music to fill gaps (the best part of Mozart Requiem, finale of Schubert's "Unfinished").

This obviously coincides with a decreasing of the degree of "authenticity" which can be claimed for any of these examples.

Whatever: I find it interesting to hear something which gives at least an impression of what the composer might have had in mind.

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Btw, a repeated request: Who has got a copy of Barry Cooper's article "Newly identified sketches for Beethoven's Tenth" for me, as I seem to have mislaid my photocopy of it [Music and Letters 66 (1985) 9-18] ?

[Peter]

Which is exactly what Bernstein showed us in elaborating and orchestrating some of the sketches for 5 i. I find them very interesting, and it shows what choices Beethoven has made to eventually create the masterpiece as we know it. But this doesn't mean it is a bad argument, as IMO it is always beneficial to extend knowledge of artists' creative worlds and processes (that includes the visual arts and literature) by (re)constructing their masterpieces. And of course it serves one of those human properties: being curious.

The artist's impressions based on sketchy material vary between completing a nearly complete full draft score (Bruckner 9 or Tchaikovsky 7), through adding orchestrations to otherwise complete movements (Schubert 7 D729), orchestrations of draft scores (Schubert 10 D.936a) or piano reductions (Beethoven WoO 4), elaborating a complete continuity sketch (Mahler 10), putting sketches together which are more or less complete and marked as such (Elgar 3, Puccini's Turandot, Busoni's Faust), creating a score based on presumptive sketches of a work (Beethoven 10), to composing completely new music to fill gaps (the best part of Mozart Requiem, finale of Schubert's "Unfinished").

This obviously coincides with a decreasing of the degree of "authenticity" which can be claimed for any of these examples.

Whatever: I find it interesting to hear something which gives at least an impression of what the composer might have had in mind.

==============

Btw, a repeated request: Who has got a copy of Barry Cooper's article "Newly identified sketches for Beethoven's Tenth" for me, as I seem to have mislaid my photocopy of it [Music and Letters 66 (1985) 9-18] ?

I'm pleased you differentiate between the different types of completion because there is a world of difference in presenting 'Beethoven's 10th' and Bruckner's 9th where the finale alone is incomplete. I agree entirely that the compositional process is fascinating and we are fortunate that we have so many sketchbooks for Beethoven.

Let's be honest about this - there is no such thing as 'Beethoven's 10th symphony' and the marketing of this piece shouldn't present it as such. I actually think Cooper has done us a disservice because it presents what to my mind is an inferior work and I don't think it meets your criteria of 'at least an impression of what the composer might have had in mind.' It is simply an academic exercise of Cooper trying to recreate Beethoven and failing miserably, so what is the point?

Brahms was very wise indeed and has escaped all such treatment.

[Roehre]

Let's be honest about this - there is no such thing as 'Beethoven's 10th symphony' and the marketing of this piece shouldn't present it as such. I actually think Cooper has done us a disservice because it presents what to my mind is an inferior work and I don't think it meets your criteria of 'at least an impression of what the composer might have had in mind.' It is simply an academic exercise of Cooper trying to recreate Beethoven and failing miserably, so what is the point?

Brahms was very wise indeed and has escaped all such treatment.

I fully agree with you regarding "there isn't such a thing as "Beethoven's Tenth", as well with your opinion that it is a rather academic excercise from Cooper's part to create a symphonic movement of inferior quality.
However, we knew of the existence of sketches for no.10, but hadn't a clue to which extant. We do have the description of a movement starting in E-flat and continuing in c-minor.

What Cooper now has demonstrated is, that it is possible to create something of an introduction and an exposition of a symphonic movement, but as well that the material is not sufficient to go any further than that.
That for commercial reasons this Beethoven-fantasy is sold as Beethoven's 10th symphony - 1st movement is deplorable but understandible, but obviously not justified. It is and always will be a conjecture based on an insufficient amount of sketches - how much Cooper knows and understands of Beethoven's compositional processes notwithstanding.


Btw, even Brahms did not escape similar treatment completely, though there are not many examples, the "reconstruction" of the original Serenade opus 11 being the most important one.