Beethoven's Tenth Symphony

[susanwen]

This was recently posted to Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdl-xIputeM

Ludwig Van Beethoven (1770-1827)

Sorry I couldn't give information related to conductor and orchestra

Ludwig van Beethoven's Symphony No. 10 in E flat major is a hypothetical work. Barry Cooper assembled it from Beethoven's fragmentary sketches and two recordings were released in 1988, one conducted by Wyn Morris and the other by Walter Weller. Cooper assembled material for a first movement consisting of an Andante in E-flat major enclosing a central Allegro in C minor. Cooper claims to have also found sketches for a Scherzo which are not developed enough to assemble into a performing version.

Beethoven never completed a Symphony No. 10. After completing the Ninth Symphony, he devoted his energies largely to composing string quartets, although there are contemporary references to some work on an orchestral piece; allegedly he played some of his ideas for this piece for his friend Karl Holz. During this time, Beethoven also began sketches for a 6th piano concerto in D major.

Calling Barry Cooper's work the "Symphony No. 10" has proven to be rather controversial, since it cannot be proven that all the sketches assembled were even intended to be part of the same piece. Cooper claimed that he found over fifty separate fragments which he wove together to form the symphonic movement.

Though this work remains controversial, there is a consensus that Beethoven did intend to complete another symphony. There are numerous references to it in his correspondence (originally, he had planned the Ninth Symphony to be entirely instrumental, the Ode to Joy to be a separate cantata, and the Tenth Symphony to conclude with a different vocal work).

Johannes Brahms's First Symphony is sometimes referred to as "Beethoven's Tenth Symphony", after a remark by Hans von Bülow.[2][3] Both the Brahms work and Cooper's realisation of Beethoven's sketches feature C-minor 6/8 Allegros.

Thanks Barry Cooper for your hard work for providing this marvelous piece to us!
Hope you'll enjoy it!

[susanwen]

I want to clarify the post I made last night. I sent what was posted to YouTube. All the text was already there, and is not my own writing.

[gprengel]

This most fascinating subject has been discussed quite a few times also in this forum, so we don't really neet to repeat it all over.

I only want to comment on this:

Cooper claims to have also found sketches for a Scherzo which are not developed enough to assemble into a performing version.

The marvellous sketches for this movement consist of 24 coherent measures which is more than the many but more fragmentary sketches for the first movement!
--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYvYZFukRqo

The least sketches exisit for the second movement - only a beautiful Andante theme in Ab major is sketched
--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ELsq2BljQY

During this time, Beethoven also began sketches for a 6th piano concerto in D major.
This is not true. This work was sketched already in 1815/16

Gerd

[Michael]

I bought the CD nearly twenty years ago. I think I have played it about four times in that period. Barry Cooper is a great musicologist but he should have been forcibly restrained from recreating the "Tenth".
Having said that, the CD also contains a most interesting talk on the surviving sketches.

[Hollywood]

I bought the CD nearly twenty years ago. I think I have played it about four times in that period. Barry Cooper is a great musicologist but he should have been forcibly restrained from recreating the "Tenth".
Having said that, the CD also contains a most interesting talk on the surviving sketches.

I also bought that cd when it came out in the 1980s and I only played it once. I really didn't like it at all and was quite disappointed. Needless to say I still have this cd but I have only played it once since that first hearing in the 1980s. Remember Peter when you and Bernard were here in Vienna and I played that cd for you guys to hear?

[Peter]

Remember Peter when you and Bernard were here in Vienna and I played that cd for you guys to hear?

Indeed and what a relief when we all agreed we'd had enough! One thing is for certain, Beethoven's 10th would have sounded nothing like the piece that alludes to that title! Cooper should have accepted that a realisation was neither desirable nor possible and presented a tv programme discussing the sketches with examples instead.

[Hofrat]

I guess I am the only forum member who finds merit in the Cooper realization of Beethoven's 10th.

The renown Schubert scholar Brian Newbould has done some realizations of unfinished Schubert sketches, notably the 7th symphony in E, the 10th symphony in D, and the piano sonata "Relique." I find it strange that Newbould received praises for his endeavors while Cooper seems to be condemned for his!

[gprengel]

I guess I am the only forum member who finds merit in the Cooper realization of Beethoven's 10th.

Certainly you are NOT the only one - I love this achievement just as I love those you mentioned from Prof. Newbould for Schubert. But I am astonished that some here say that they bought the CD, heard it once or a few times and say that it is rubbish... I also was disappointed when I heard it the first time (I heard it live at the first performance in London!). But as I listened to it carefully many times on the CD, I wondered how this cannot be appreciated! The slow introduction is just marvellous, also other passages from the Allegro, especially the end of the exposition/recapitulation. The only part which is weak, is the transition from development to recapitulation.

Gerd

[Peter]

Certainly you are NOT the only one - I love this achievement just as I love those you mentioned from Prof. Newbould for Schubert. But I am astonished that some here say that they bought the CD, heard it once or a few times and say that it is rubbish... I also was disappointed when I heard it the first time (I heard it live at the first performance in London!). But as I listened to it carefully many times on the CD, I wondered how this cannot be appreciated! The slow introduction is just marvellous, also other passages from the Allegro, especially the end of the exposition/recapitulation. The only part which is weak, is the transition from development to recapitulation.

Gerd

I appreciate and understand the positive responses to this, but the point is that no matter how good (or bad) a realisation is, it is not the work of the composer. Especially in Beethoven's case where he would refine and refine.
We should ask the question would Beethoven consider the Cooper a satisfactory representation of how his 10th symphony would have been? I doubt it very much considering that he was against anyone else arranging works of his that were already completed yet alone in preliminary sketch stage. It is also possible that Beethoven might have abandoned those initial sketches entirely as unsatisfactory - he did this with other pieces and Cooper's realisation hardly presents a movement that can stand comparison with any from the previous symphonies.

[Michael]

Damn it! I have an overpowering urge to dig out that CD and give it one more listen. Thanks, everybody!

[Sorrano]

As I've listened to it I've considered it an interesting point of view of the musicologist that contains some of Beethoven's unrefined ideas. It gives a taste of what might have come, but nothing more. Perhaps if one listens to this without any expectations of the work being Beethovenish then that person might actually find it enjoyable. It is not a bad composition; it just does not represent how Beethoven sounds to us.

[Michael]

I believe some of the original sketches can be heard (albeit in the much-maligned MIDI format) at the "Unheard Beethoven" website.
I downloaded a lot of them a good few years back, braving the Wrath of Rod (remember, Peter?)

[Peter]

Yes, I share Sorrano's view: it is just a taste, and at least we get to hear part of a work in its sketch form. It also lets our imaginations run wild as to what the true "finished product" would have been like. I see no harm in creatively recreating sketches rather than leave the notes on dusty old manuscript paper.

Often Beethoven's original sketches are quite banal - what is interesting is knowing the finished product and seeing how he gets there. It does seem pointless to see how like Beethoven we can be (an impossibility surely?) with these snippets, especially considering the number of completed 'true' Beethoven works that nobody bothers to listen to - gems such as Primo Amore WoO92 or the early piano quartets for example.

[Peter]

I believe some of the original sketches can be heard (albeit in the much-maligned MIDI format) at the "Unheard Beethoven" website.
I downloaded a lot of them a good few years back, braving the Wrath of Rod (remember, Peter?)

I remember the wrath of Rod on many issues Michael so hard to single out that incident! As I said in my reply to Philip I very much see the worth in studying the sketches of completed works because we have a finished product - no way can Cooper's realisation be considered as such.

[Roehre]

This most fascinating subject has been discussed quite a few times also in this forum, so we don't really neet to repeat it all over.

I only want to comment on this:

Cooper claims to have also found sketches for a Scherzo which are not developed enough to assemble into a performing version.

The marvellous sketches for this movement consist of 24 coherent measures which is more than the many but more fragmentary sketches for the first movement!
--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYvYZFukRqo

The least sketches exisit for the second movement - only a beautiful Andante theme in Ab major is sketched
--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ELsq2BljQY

During this time, Beethoven also began sketches for a 6th piano concerto in D major.
This is not true. This work was sketched already in 1815/16

Gerd

The scherzo meant here is most likely not part of the sketches for the tenth symphony. The attribution is by Schindler (see the handwriting on top of the page), who is not the most reliable witness, especially not in musical matters.
A transcription of the fragment can be found in Denis Matthews' Beethoven (Master Musicians), Dent & sons, 1985, p.170.


Cooper acknowledges a minor number of sketches for the 2nd mvt in his talk on the 1988 premiere CD.

For those who are interested in the "6th" Pianoconcerto from 1815, there exists a (rather bland, but nevertheless interesting) recording of the 1st mvt of the piece (of which a significant part was written out in full score by Beethoven already, leaving this work in a similar state as Schubert did his Symphony in E D729): http://www.beethoven-france.org/Bout...n.html#Inedita (Beethoven rarities vol.4).


An interesting puzzle around the sketches of no.10 is the Belgian 19th century musicologist and composer Fétis' remark that the 1822Gratulationsmenuett in E-flat (WoO 3) formed a part of the projected symphony. He said that the work was sketched during work on no.10 and that sketches for WoO 3 were interspersed with those more recently identified as those for no.10 -which proved to be correct. But how did he know?