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    #31

    It is not because of historical inaccuracy that I dislike Immortal Beloved. I consider Amadeus to be the one of the best movies ever made, and yet it is also historically inaccurate in many respects. What I find bad about Immortal Beloved is simply that; it is bad. I find parts of it terribly boring, and I don't care what you say, Beethoven seemed insane to me. There were some good parts to the movie, and Beethoven's music was well used, especially at the end, but generally, I like these kind of movies to have perhaps a more ironic sense of humor.

    Regarding the comercialization of classical music, I agree with Peter that it is not necessarily the best option. It is a good thing when performers like Joshua Bell do get their music out into the world publically, classical music is not something to be hidden in the closet. However, focusing on publicity more could result in SOME performers becoming more concerned with their image than with what they think about the music, right or wrong. They may change key elements of their playing simply because to do otherwise would make them look bad, and the music's emotional point might not get across Incidentally, most popular music is released performed by either the people who wrote or the people for whom it was written, so they don't have to interpret as much, where as with most classical music, interpretaions sometimes tend to diverge away from what the composer might have liked, and when that happens, people can sometimes notice it subliminally, and not like the music. So it might be in clasical music's best interest to use period instruments. Regarding my beliefs about how to go about spreading classical music, read my comments under the topic "Kids and Music" will best explain it

    Bob

    ------------------
    Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.
    Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by pianojones:
      I am getting toward the end of Maynard Solomon's biography. I question his Freudian approach to Beethoven (as I did when reading his Mozart bio). Wondering what others who have read this book think about this analysis of the Immortal, and especially the treatment of the composer's relationship to his nephew and sister-in-law.
      This all makes B. look pretty bad....
      I've not read his Beethoven book, but I have the Mozart which you also mention. I think Soloman is worth reading as he does share alot of knowledge. His tendency however to psycho analize is absurd. No real psychiatrist would deign to diagnose a patient before weeks or months of interview. Soloman seems to think he can explain feelings and motives across two centuries with out ever meeting the patient.


      Steve

      www.mozartforum.com

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Bob the Composer:

        It is not because of historical inaccuracy that I dislike Immortal Beloved. I consider Amadeus to be the one of the best movies ever made, and yet it is also historically inaccurate in many respects. What I find bad about Immortal Beloved is simply that; it is bad. I find parts of it terribly boring, and I don't care what you say, Beethoven seemed insane to me. There were some good parts to the movie, and Beethoven's music was well used, especially at the end, but generally, I like these kind of movies to have perhaps a more ironic sense of humor.


        I agree entirely with your appraisal of Immortal Beloved - aside from the historical distortion the film was extremely sombre and dark in tone - Beethoven despite his sufferings had a damn good sense of humour and I think we should have seen a lot more of that!

        Amadeus was historically inaccurate, but the basic premise that Salieri poisoned Mozart was based on a genuine confession from Salieri whilst in an asylum; Rimsky-Korsakov wrote an opera based on this. Mozart himself thought he was being poisoned and he did believe the commission for the Requiem had superstitious connotations. Incidentally I agree Amadeus was a great film - wonderful entertainment in a way IB was not.

        P.S. love you in colour Bob!

        ------------------
        'Man know thyself'
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #34
          Looks like Bob and Peter beat me to the punch... I was going to admit that movies about famous people can be made entertaining by 'adjusting' the facts, and that Amadeus is the prime example. But IB just isn't a good movie.
          Using Johanna as the IB must have been too much of a temptation for the scriptwriter to ignore. It very neatly explains B's obsession with Karl and his violent reaction to his mother. And she was probably the last person anyone remotely familiar with LvB would suspect. Possibly an entertaining movie could have been made with this premise, but IB isn't it. We never really get to know Johanna's character and are left wondering why he feels so passionately about her. Perhaps if her personality had been developed, and she was shown as being someone sympathetic whom LvB would have been attracted to, (even if this involved stretching or fabricating the truth), the whole thing would have at least made more sense...Perhaps...
          For a really satisfactory movie of Beethoven, I think more attention would have to be paid to his unfortunate childhood, his stellar rise to fame, the tragedy of his deafness and his overcoming this setback, the emotional lows and spiritual heights of his life and perhaps some mention could be made of those friends of his who wouldn't dessert him, no matter how badly he treated them.
          I dunno. Maybe I expect too much.

          Mary

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Rod:
            There is no difference between the two editions, the single volume version is cheaper as far as I can remember, which is why I bought it.
            I did buy Cooper's _Compendium_ yesterday, as well as a used copy of _B: Impressions by His Contemporaries_ for $4.50 at my local wonderful book store, Powell's: http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/bibli...1-0486217701-1

            I passed on the 2-vol. Thayer set for $30+, and will request one of their used copies of the single vol. edition from their warehouse next time.

            I've started in on the _Compendium_ already, and am enjoying it so far. The _Impressions_ looked interesting, and for the price, I threw caution to the wind.


            Jando's op106 has the shortest time for the adagio I've ever seen (but not heard). My inclination is towards a quicker time than the norm for this movment, I presume J pulls it off in this recording?

            I'm listening to Jando's Adagio again now in light of your point about tempo. I have no other recording of Op. 106, so I have no frame of reference, but now that you mention it, I believe I would enjoy a slower interpretation.

            Recommendations for a period piano recording welcome......

            I'm not really a musician, having only had 2 or 3 years of orchestra/jazz band instruction (bass) from about age 11-13. I played bass for years as a hobby (wanted to be a rock star ala John Paul Jones, Chris Squire, or of course, Geddy Lee) after that, and picked up a couple of synthesizers along the way. Never had keyboard lessons, but could play some things I was interested in by ear.

            Now, in my mid-late 30's, I realize that I missed my calling in life as a Beethoven-only classical pianist. What I wouldn't give to be able to play C'to 4, for example!
            I occasionally entertain thoughts of investing in a new digital piano (real piano isn't really practical for me) and lessons...

            Oh, by the way, is it just me, or is B substantially above and beyond all other composers? ;^)

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
              He said himself that each people see the facts with his own perception and that it does not mean nothing... (letter to E. von BREUNING).
              Claudie
              Wow. I wasn't prepared to come across not a single post that even took a neutral stance on my view of that movie or my ideas on c.m. rehabilitation. I won't be swayed from my position on all that contentious matter, and, clearly, none of you will be swayed from yours. We'll just have to agree to disgree, then.

              Maybe Claudie's reference can be a comfort to me. My perceptions mean little to you, but yours mean just as little to me. The nature of individuality, I suppose.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Serge:


                Maybe Claudie's reference can be a comfort to me. My perceptions mean little to you, but yours mean just as little to me. The nature of individuality, I suppose.
                Your perceptions don't mean little to me - I do respect your views - I just feel that Beethoven deserves better that IB. Wouldn't you like to see an historically accurate portrayal of Beethoven covering more of his life? - how about all of his life? - I agree it would be an epic, but what a story! Beethoven is so fascinating a person and the music so wonderful that there is no need to make things up.

                ------------------
                'Man know thyself'
                'Man know thyself'

                Comment


                  #38
                  [QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
                  [Wouldn't you like to see an historically accurate portrayal of Beethoven covering more of his life? - how about all of his life? - I agree it would be an epic, but what a story! Beethoven is so fascinating a person and the music so wonderful that there is no need to make things up.

                  Well said!!

                  BTW, all is not doom and gloom on the state of cm. I'm in the UK, and there are 2 national cm stations ( Radio 3 & Classic FM).
                  Classic Fm has just published figures of 6 million listeners a week, and the biggest listenership of ANY independent radio station in the UK ( including 'pop' music)!


                  Comment


                    #39
                    In the sense that labels need to present a better image so people are willing to try the new, yes, a spiffier image would help. But I think a better idea would be to expose people to modern composers and their works instead of promoting the instrumentalists. I find it somewhat disconcerting when people know who Yo-Yo Ma is, but can't name a piece in his repetoire.

                    Money's also a factor in choosing CM over something else. Few users upload CM on Napster and other file-sharing communities, so the selection is very limited and potential fans have no way of sampling the goods besides radio. Don't know what the situation is elsewhere, but there aren't many classical stations, so listeners can't simply tune to another station is something they don't like is on. CDs aren't getting much cheaper and the audience to which CM needs to be promoted would choose the tried and true over something so new.

                    CM needs a new name..."classical" signifies something in the past, and CM certainly isn't dead. It's a misnomer anyhow.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by NickB:
                      I'm listening to Jando's Adagio again now in light of your point about tempo. I have no other recording of Op. 106, so I have no frame of reference, but now that you mention it, I believe I would enjoy a slower interpretation.

                      Recommendations for a period piano recording welcome......
                      Well, a little slower may be ok, but not the 19 minute marathons one often hears. I have a recording of 106 by Paul Badura-Skoda using an 1820 Graf which is very good. The adagio here is a little swifter than the norm but I think it could do with a little further compression. I think some of the bars struggle at the extremely broad interpretations we usually hear. There is room for some drama and dynamism that fits more in line with B's other slow movments, which are rarely the constant ultra-largo that the current adagio has become. Also the structure of the work as a whole benefits from a shorter rendition - it is effectively cut in two usually because of the over-long adagio. I have another period recording from the boxed set on the Claves label (I think the only period version still in the catalogue) but the performance is a rather conventional one despite the use of a good fortepiano, with the first and last movements played rather lamely (as is also typical)compared to Bardura-Skoda's effort.

                      Originally posted by NickB:

                      Oh, by the way, is it just me, or is B substantially above and beyond all other composers? ;^)
                      Other than Handel (B's favourite, and my close second) I personally would agree with this statement and have said much the same myself. When I listen to all of the remainder I am only reminded consistantly of the validity of your remark.

                      ------------------
                      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Serge:
                        Wow. I wasn't prepared to come across not a single post that even took a neutral stance on my view of that movie or my ideas on c.m. rehabilitation. I won't be swayed from my position on all that contentious matter, and, clearly, none of you will be swayed from yours. We'll just have to agree to disgree, then.

                        Maybe Claudie's reference can be a comfort to me. My perceptions mean little to you, but yours mean just as little to me. The nature of individuality, I suppose.
                        <font size=3><font color="red">I don't totally disaprove of your "cm rehabilitation" idea, because I do believe that there needs to be more publicity regarding Classical Music. I'm just also worried about the cons of such a plan, as well as delighted with the pros. Also, I believe that internet can be used to promote classical music, there are plenty of sites regarding it on the internet, including this one where people can discuss the music and such freely. Lots of people come to these sites to express their opinions, and your assessment of the nature of personal belief is fundamentally correct, everyone will have their own opinion. I tend to listen to people's arguments and make an informed decision after hearing them out, rather than make an unshakable stand at the beginning. </font></font>

                        <font color="green">Bob</font>

                        ------------------
                        Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.
                        Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Jin:
                          In the sense that labels need to present a better image so people are willing to try the new, yes, a spiffier image would help. But I think a better idea would be to expose people to modern composers and their works instead of promoting the instrumentalists. I find it somewhat disconcerting when people know who Yo-Yo Ma is, but can't name a piece in his repetoire.
                          CDs aren't getting much cheaper and the audience to which CM needs to be promoted would choose the tried and true over something so new.
                          You are quite correct in stating that composers should be emphasized just as much as the performers. You are also quite right that new music needs to be written and performed, and that CDs are getting more expensive is not helping the situation.

                          Bob

                          ------------------
                          Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.
                          Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Gee, I didn't mean to be opening up such a can of worms....

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by pianojones:
                              Gee, I didn't mean to be opening up such a can of worms....
                              It's been a very interesting can of worms though!

                              ------------------
                              'Man know thyself'
                              'Man know thyself'

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
                                You are quite correct in stating that composers should be emphasized just as much as the performers. You are also quite right that new music needs to be written and performed, and that CDs are getting more expensive is not helping the situation.

                                Bob

                                You are right Bob, but I think education is the answer - it's in the schools and at an early age children need to be given more opportunities and encouragement to learn musical instruments. The price of CD's is ludicrous, but this applies to pop as well as classical.

                                ------------------
                                'Man know thyself'
                                'Man know thyself'

                                Comment

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