Solomon's bio

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I haven't read the book, but I thought he considered Antonie Brentano to be the IB, so how can the concept that Johanna was the IB have come from Solomon?

It's got nothing to do with the Immortal Beloved, as has been said it has got everything to do with the idea that Beethoven had a 'thing' with Johanna!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

Originally posted by Rod:
"I like Britney Spears' music (yes, I do) because a lot of it sounds symphonic to me."

Recognise these words Serge?

Yeah, Rod, they're familiar. Mind you, I fail to catch your point, unless it is that I am incapable in your view of making a "correct" opinion. Pardon me while I go and borrow a copy of Cooper's bio and read once more through its glancing and otherwise generally insipid copy. I'll likely glean nothing new from it that couldn't be found in other traditional Beethoven biographies, but at least I will be on the very same page as almost everyone else here. And when I finish with that, I might quell my desperate fix for something controversial or intriguing by watching I.B., too.

Pity poor Ludwig. No wonder people think c.m. is stuffy and boring. Unless it's provided in absolutely accurate historical format, it can't qualify as progressing c.m.'s image. Solomon attempting to use some psychoanalysis on Beethoven is not a failure or a travesty. It comes off at worst as a nice attempt by an admirer and scholar at delving into a very complex human and at best a very intriguing study that deserves more examination. Freud is not "dated", and there are things about people that are usually beyond their control; if there weren't, is it not reasonable to think that all humans would more or less be perfectly "normal"?

I still can't get over the fact ALL of you have terrible problems with I.B. The movie was a drama, not a Biography-style documentary. The people who would walk away from the movie focusing on the whole sister-in-law thing clearly missed the greater scope of the movie that presented the composer as a conflicted genius (operational words being conflicted and genius). I find the mood here is that people are OFFENDED that Beethoven could be in love with his sister-in-law, which may be unusual, but far less disturbing than even the mildest Oedipal complex. In any case, I'm sure I'm just talking to the wall here anyway, so no matter...

If people are going to be interested in something done by someone these days, I have a strong suspicion that people need to be able to connect to a physical depiction of the person. I think that is a strong factor behind our culture's celebrity madness. Any effort made in good faith to increase Beethoven's personal (ie: NOT musical) presence is a commendable one. Disparaging the work of imaginative individuals will prevent anything but the driest, most exhaustively BORING things from ever seeing light of day. Sometimes, it can seem that there is little else more dispiriting than the tunnel vision of dogma.

[Immortal Beloved]

Originally posted by Serge:

Yeah, Rod, they're familiar. Mind you, I fail to catch your point, unless it is that I am incapable in your view of making a "correct" opinion. Pardon me while I go and borrow a copy of Cooper's bio and read once more through its glancing and otherwise generally insipid copy. I'll likely glean nothing new from it that couldn't be found in other traditional Beethoven biographies, but at least I will be on the very same page as almost everyone else here. And when I finish with that, I might quell my desperate fix for something controversial or intriguing by watching I.B., too.

Pity poor Ludwig. No wonder people think c.m. is stuffy and boring. Unless it's provided in absolutely accurate historical format, it can't qualify as progressing c.m.'s image. Solomon attempting to use some psychoanalysis on Beethoven is not a failure or a travesty. It comes off at worst as a nice attempt by an admirer and scholar at delving into a very complex human and at best a very intriguing study that deserves more examination. Freud is not "dated", and there are things about people that are usually beyond their control; if there weren't, is it not reasonable to think that all humans would more or less be perfectly "normal"?

I still can't get over the fact ALL of you have terrible problems with I.B. The movie was a drama, not a Biography-style documentary. The people who would walk away from the movie focusing on the whole sister-in-law thing clearly missed the greater scope of the movie that presented the composer as a conflicted genius (operational words being conflicted and genius). I find the mood here is that people are OFFENDED that Beethoven could be in love with his sister-in-law, which may be unusual, but far less disturbing than even the mildest Oedipal complex. In any case, I'm sure I'm just talking to the wall here anyway, so no matter...

If people are going to be interested in something done by someone these days, I have a strong suspicion that people need to be able to connect to a physical depiction of the person. I think that is a strong factor behind our culture's celebrity madness. Any effort made in good faith to increase Beethoven's personal (ie: NOT musical) presence is a commendable one. Disparaging the work of imaginative individuals will prevent anything but the driest, most exhaustively BORING things from ever seeing light of day. Sometimes, it can seem that there is little else more dispiriting than the tunnel vision of dogma.

I agree with you serge....it's been along time I read your post.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Serge:


I find the mood here is that people are OFFENDED that Beethoven could be in love with his sister-in-law, which may be unusual, but far less disturbing than even the mildest Oedipal complex.

I'm not offended by the notion that a man may be in love with his sister-in-law, I'm offended by the fact that the film portrayed this as fact, when it clearly wasn't the case - the facts are that Beethoven loathed that woman!

If it's OK in your eyes to portray the complete opposite of the truth in the name of entertainment, perhaps you could say what you wouldn't find acceptable - How about a film portraying Beethoven as gay? - I bet you be up in arms over that! You describe a desire for the truth as dogma, it certainly isn't my definition of the word.

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'Man know thyself'

[NickB]

Originally posted by Rod:
For someone looking for an all-round guide to B's life and music I would say Cooper's latest effort is a good choice, however from my scanning through this opus I don't think it offers a great deal of new info for those who already have a Beethoven library, though it does make use of the latest research. I'd wait for the softback edition. For sheer volume of facts and info, 'Thayer's Life' remains the king, even though it could do with a new edition. Solomon has done a lot of interesting research but for me he has strayed way too far into matters that are totally out of his league.

So if I follow your lead, if I were to want to assemble a B library (what self-respecting B lover wouldn't want to?!?), I would want to get a copy of Thayer first, then the 2000 Cooper? Or the Compendium?

Looking for Thayer, I see that there's a 1970 edition with 1100+ pages, and a 1995 edition in two volumes. Should I prefer one edition over the other other than on price?

TIA.

NP: Jando's Op. 106 on Naxos.

[Serge]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not offended by the notion that a man may be in love with his sister-in-law, I'm offended by the fact that the film portrayed this as fact, when it clearly wasn't the case - the facts are that Beethoven loathed that woman!

If it's OK in your eyes to portray the complete opposite of the truth in the name of entertainment, perhaps you could say what you wouldn't find acceptable - How about a film portraying Beethoven as gay? - I bet you be up in arms over that! You describe a desire for the truth as dogma, it certainly isn't my definition of the word.

Oversimplifying my point won't do us any good. I do not think the "complete opposite of the truth" is entertainment, and I.B. does not fit that mold in the least. The complete opposite of Beethoven's life would be unrecognizable to anyone. Drawing the line between what can be acceptably faked in representation and what can't is a terribly gray area. In my case I believe the identity of the woman who B. wrote the letter to is something that can be fudged-- if only because it can still be debated that Brentano was not the intended recipient. So what if the woman in the movie was the wrong one? Is there any person who's going to write their history paper citing the movie as a source? Whether Beethoven loved Woman A or Woman B has little bearing on the scope of the film.

The dogma I refer to is the one that rigidly demands that the annals of history can never be altered to match or approximate the moods of the current age. Unless Beethoven's piano sonata cycle is played on period pianos, it's not acceptable. Unless a biography focuses only on observable facts and does not explore them, it's not acceptable. I for one am utterly convinced that different eras require different means of keeping something old alive. If classical music dies out within my lifetime, I'm laying part of the blame squarely at the feet of the c.m. establishment. They wail that c.m. is dying and that musicians can barely make a living, but where is their effort to make their life's work APPEALING to today's youth? We live in a market economy. Make c.m. competitive. Encourage young virtuosos to make themselves more widely recognized. An entire cottage industry of c.m. marketing could conceivably exist if what sells pop music were applied to c.m. Can't be done, you say? Why not?

Beethoven was the most celebrated composer in the greatest city of music during the height of c.m. Why is that something that would strike almost everyone as a surprise? If more people realized that, it might change a few attitudes. Mozart was composing at four and ended up writing over 600 works by age 31. Despite my opinion of him, that is PHENOMENAL. Saint-Saens was the biggest multitasker/composer I know. He was an accomplished astronomer, mathematician, philosopher, and he dabbled in the natural sciences. Let's not forget that he also happened to become one of France's most celebrated composers. How many people know that? Why isn't there any p.r. for these people and their achievements? Sibelius was an alcoholic, Schumann eventually got committed, Tchaikovsky was a depressed closet queer in a sham marriage, Berlioz was a druggie who once contemplated a murder/suicide, and let's not forget the whole Brahms/Clara Schumann issue. These composers are FASCINATING people. Why don't more people know what made them tick? No one cares? If I'd had a music class that attempted to describe and personify the great composers, I'd bet my watch and chain that more of my classmates would be intrigued enough to look into c.m. a little more closely. Having a movie like I.B. show us a vulnerable, volatile, but complex and immeasurably talented man is going to open up people's eyes to Beethoven and how he was. No matter how you slice that, it can't be anything but a good thing.

[This message has been edited by Serge (edited 08-02-2001).]

[maverick108]

Certainly agree that knowing a composer's trials and tribulations ( not to forget his loves, hates, regrets,etc) make the music much more interesting.

And not just in music. Take art for example. I adore Van Gogh, and to me his paintings are all the more poignant because I can read how he descended into depression and 'madness', and how his paintings reflect his state of mind at the time. Doesn't mean you can't appreciate them without knowing his bio, but just that knowing his story makes the pictures come alive.

The same with Beethoven, and all t'other composers. I also agree that the music establishment has to do something to keep cm alive and relative to a young audience. However, resorting to total guesswork just for the sake of good cinema/entertainment is a bridge too far.

[Jin]

Drama certainly makes the subject more appealing, but if the youth that these distortions of fact attract are interested in Beethoven only because of the lurid details of his love life or the "drama," they're not going to be interested for long. The film's inaccuracies generate a false interest, of sorts--more a passing fixation than lasting curiosity.

I think people are bothered less by the movie makers straying from fact than that they not only chose a discredible version, but possibly the most untrue one. Had they indicated one of the women whom scholars believe to be "candidates," no argument would come of this. But (correct me if I'm wrong...and I very well may be) I doubt B's sister-in-law had ever been considered by ANYONE as a viable candidate. The film makers' choice veers a bit too close to flagrant disregard or lack of research for comfort. I enjoyed the movie, and I doubt that any of us walked out of the theater focused on the sister-in-law. The film makers may have been looking to create drama or controversy, but controversy is only intriguing with the presence of a valid foundation. Controversy for the sake of controversy yields hollow results.

[Jin]

I agree that visual stimulation tends to be more attention-grabbing than audio cues, but the absence of PR for CM composers can be explained by the nature of the "product." Sure, we could make ads with flashy portraits of Beethoven or Mozart, but consumers can't access that image since the composers are dead. Celebrity mania lives because people can access the product through movies, internet, etc., and the images are almost collectible since new ones are made on a consistent basis whereas there's a limit to how much is available from the past.

The best thing that could happen to CM (speaking in terms of reaching out to today's youth) is the shortening of pieces and the abolition of the impression that CM is only soft and not upbeat. People have short attention spans since they've got so many choices (ie satellite TV) in a competitive market. It's precisely because of this market that gimmicks work. The thinking is: why take 4 minutes to delve into a serious classical piece when you can finish an entire pop song in that time? Thence, the product that requires longer periods of time to hook consumers lose out to products that deliver a bang right out the gate.

Besides, the composer's legacy is, foremost, his music, and pushing an image or a life won't necessarily create any spike in interest in the music.

[Serge]

If a composer's legacy is that of general obscurity and bin after bin of budget label CDs in most music stores, then I'd think it's fair to assume said legacy could use a little polishing. Classical music will go the way of Latin if something helpful does not occur soon: destined to be remembered by few as something worth perpetuating and remembered by most as an archaic and generally forgotten human endeavor. The recording industry isn't helping by putting out time and time again yet another budget disc of the same old crap. The c.m. magazine industry isn't helping by making their flagship periodicals hardly anything more than a lot of reviews bookended with a couple interviews and a page's worth of news briefs. Of course, schools aren't helping either by eliminating any sort of music appreciation from the curriculum. The attitude nowadays is that c.m. is not worth bothering with. Like miltary history or ancient philosophy or 17th century art, the information on c.m. is available, but no one really bothers to look it up. So, if you want to market the c.m. industry, how do you do it?

Two ways, IMO: publicize the artists performing the work, and publicize the composers who wrote it. Let people know, in various media, that composers were just as distinguishable in character as any lead singer or guitarist today. There is an abominable trend by most labels in c.m. advertising today to avoid anything flashy or attention-grabbing. CDs are released in uninspiring, boring packages with stock photos on the cover and minimal notes inside. Artists go on tour, but no one knows unless people actually dig for tour info from websites. Those of you familiar with my posts know how much I respect Sony Classical for attempting to put some desperately needed sizzle in their c.m. marketing. SC has a well-funded art dept. and they do some damn fine work putting out sumptuous-looking CDs that actually look nice when displayed. SC's artists, other than being immensely talented, are starting to expand their options when on tour. Yo-Yo Ma does documentaries for PBS. Joshua Bell performs live in Central Park. Hilary Hahn provides postcards from her various tour stops, and so on. Little things that help enhance the image of classical music. Little things like a gorgeously photographed and brilliantly scored film like I.B. that helps raise a profile in need of some exposure.

I think someone should do some serious research into how desperate the straits are that classical music is in. Truth is, I fear to find out.

[This message has been edited by Serge (edited 08-03-2001).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge:

Drawing the line between what can be acceptably faked in representation and what can't is a terribly gray area. In my case I believe the identity of the woman who B. wrote the letter to is something that can be fudged-- if only because it can still be debated that Brentano was not the intended recipient

Yes it can still be debated and had any other of the possible candidates been considered it would have been acceptable. No serious case can be made for Johanna, so this is stretching poetic licence too far.


Whether Beethoven loved Woman A or Woman B has little bearing on the scope of the film.

Then why call the film 'Immortal Beloved' ?

The dogma I refer to is the one that rigidly demands that the annals of history can never be altered to match or approximate the moods of the current age. Unless Beethoven's piano sonata cycle is played on period pianos, it's not acceptable.

Yes History has to be interpreted but not distorted - the same goes for performance, and I have never said that Beethoven MUST be performed on period instruments - what I do believe is that we are so used to hearing Beethoven on modern instruments that is refreshing to hear him on original instruments - the people who are dogmatic on this issue are the ones who refuse to even consider HIP.

An entire cottage industry of c.m. marketing could conceivably exist if what sells pop music were applied to c.m. Can't be done, you say? Why not?

Because Pop by it's nature is tacky commercialism, one junk hit replaces another - here today gone tomorrow. Pop relies on sensationalism and the more outrageous the better. CM does have a problem but going down that road isn't the answer.

Mozart was composing at four and ended up writing over 600 works by age 31. Despite my opinion of him, that is PHENOMENAL.

It's not the quantity but quality that make that phenomenal!
Yes the great composers were fascinating men, but only because you and I are touched by their music - that's the bottom line - I think the music draws you to the man not the other way round. Take away the music and who'd be interested in a deaf man or a madman or a druggie?



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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

I don't like Solomon's book... It does exist bad psy and good psy !
It reminds ne the Sterba's one in another way (Gay théory !).
I liked the movie I.B. (I even cried at the end, even if I knew it was all fiction and even if I found the Johanna's idea a nonsense). The music was there, and it was good that a large public (also young people who would never hear c.m. otherwise) can discover B.s hits....
It gave also a good atmosphere of B.s era.
The story is, of course, something a beethovenian must forget during the movie !
And after !!!

Thayer's book as an unbelievable value and the revisiting by Forbes either. I also wait a new edition, completed with the REAL FULL translation of ALL the letters fron and to B.

Only that can give a good overview of B.s character.... but the main idea of him we can get is in his music !

He said himself that each people see the facts with his own perception and that it does not mean nothing... (letter to E. von BREUNING).

To those interested, it does exist am interessant site on the focus I.B. (not the movie, the search !) : http://www.beethovensbeloved.com

Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:

Yeah, Rod, they're familiar. Mind you, I fail to catch your point, unless it is that I am incapable in your view of making a "correct" opinion.

Just arming myself against any future questioning of my taste and judgement in matters of music!

Originally posted by Serge:

Pardon me while I go and borrow a copy of Cooper's bio and read once more through its glancing and otherwise generally insipid copy. I'll likely glean nothing new from it that couldn't be found in other traditional Beethoven biographies, but at least I will be on the very same page as almost everyone else here. And when I finish with that, I might quell my desperate fix for something controversial or intriguing by watching I.B., too.

This is near enough what I said about Coopers book myself. I really recommended it only to those without a beethoven library, and even then only in the softback edition. Nevertheless, when it comes to contentious issues I find myself almost always in agreement with Cooper.

Originally posted by Serge:

I still can't get over the fact ALL of you have terrible problems with I.B. The movie was a drama, not a Biography-style documentary. The people who would walk away from the movie focusing on the whole sister-in-law thing clearly missed the greater scope of the movie that presented the composer as a conflicted genius (operational words being conflicted and genius). I find the mood here is that people are OFFENDED that Beethoven could be in love with his sister-in-law, which may be unusual, but far less disturbing than even the mildest Oedipal complex. In any case, I'm sure I'm just talking to the wall here anyway, so no matter...

There's absolutely no way B could have been in love with Johanna, it's impossible. Johanna was even pregnant during the court procedings by some unknown character to whom she was certainly not married. She had also been involved in court charges for some financial wrong doings whose details escape me at the moment. The list of her 'crimes' in B's eyes was long and often unmentionable! B thought himself way above this sort of thing and this sort of person. In his letter's to J personally that I have read there is not the stightest hint of any amourous inclination. At very best they are polite but detached. No chance! There were certainly plenty of better options around for him direct his attentions to, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Serge:

If people are going to be interested in something done by someone these days, I have a strong suspicion that people need to be able to connect to a physical depiction of the person. I think that is a strong factor behind our culture's celebrity madness. Any effort made in good faith to increase Beethoven's personal (ie: NOT musical) presence is a commendable one. Disparaging the work of imaginative individuals will prevent anything but the driest, most exhaustively BORING things from ever seeing light of day. Sometimes, it can seem that there is little else more dispiriting than the tunnel vision of dogma.

Solomon's imagination goes some way beyond the evidence, sometimes life is more boring than writers would like. I get the impression S was looking for a good story at any cost.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
To those interested, it does exist am interessant site on the focus I.B. (not the movie, the search !) : http://www.beethovensbeloved.com

Claudie

Thank you for that very interesting link Claudie which I shall add to the links page on this site.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by NickB:
So if I follow your lead, if I were to want to assemble a B library (what self-respecting B lover wouldn't want to?!?), I would want to get a copy of Thayer first, then the 2000 Cooper? Or the Compendium?

Looking for Thayer, I see that there's a 1970 edition with 1100+ pages, and a 1995 edition in two volumes. Should I prefer one edition over the other other than on price?

TIA.

NP: Jando's Op. 106 on Naxos.

There is no difference between the two editions, the single volume version is cheaper as far as I can remember, which is why I bought it.

Jando's op106 has the shortest time for the adagio I've ever seen (but not heard). My inclination is towards a quicker time than the norm for this movment, I presume J pulls it off in this recording?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin