Beethoven and melody...

[Peter]

I wanted to explain in more detail. When I listen to Beethoven, yes, I hear ugliness in all its glory. For instance, when I listen to the opening chords of the 5th Piano Concerto I hear ugliness (it is almost though as Beethoven made the major ugly for a large part), though when I listen to the opening chords 4th I hear beauty.

The same qualities of the opening of the 5th Piano Concerto applies to much of what I hear when I listen to Beethoven. Take the Overture to the Egmont - raw strength, hope through good, etc. but completely deformed from anything "beautiful". Or, the 3rd Piano Concerto (I bring this up because I listened to it recently), I love the 1st mov. because it is, well it is a lot of things, but while it has some beauty it is also deformed music. It is almost like Beethoven is saying this is what I think of structure.

Though, I may be completely wrong.

I wonder how you respond Preston to the more dissonant music of composers such as Bartok?

[Peter]

Interesting perspective on things. I've considered the "insanity" of melody and music making in general myself before, and all of the emotions that can be derived by specific combinations of notes, rhythms, dynamics. Beethoven was a master of the this, above all others to my mind. I wouldn't call Beethoven's music "ugly", even at it's most abrasive it's beautiful to my ears.

Of course both Mozart and Beethoven could write beautiful, catchy, lyrical melodies when they wished to - in Beethoven's case, think of the final movement of the Waldstein sonata, the "Ode to Joy" theme, the main theme of the fourth movement of the Eroica symphony... and many more. For Mozart, yes the first movement of the 40th is a good example. But there's so much more to music than just long lyrical melodies and both Beethoven and Mozart understood this. Nowadays in popular music we have melody being way overemphasised.

Thic comes down to the matter of the Classical style where composers were more interested in the development potential of a motiff rather than melody as in the case of the Romantics. It is one of my main arguments for why Beethoven was not a Romantic composer!

[Preston]

Thic comes down to the matter of the Classical style where composers were more interested in the development potential of a motiff rather than melody as in the case of the Romantics. It is one of my main arguments for why Beethoven was not a Romantic composer!

I think that is a very good argument, at least that does actually make sense to me. I see this now: when I do listen to the Romantic composers I do hear I guess one would more of a "singular type" of melody. Such as, Dvorak's 9th full of recognizable melodies to my ears. Yet the Classical era composers wrote differently, quite interesting. Beethoven and Mozart I am sure could write melody like the romantics though they didn't. There music is different. Peter why do you say Mozart was more of melodic composer and Beethoven more structural? I think I hear a more melodic side to Mozart's music, though it depends on the way melody was used at the given time, I guess.

[Preston]

Preston, how do you appreciate the 2nd mvt (Rondo) of the piano sonata opus 90?

In truth, as I have tried to state before, I do not have the understanding and feeling for the Classical Era music I would like, nor the Baroque. I feel some pieces but not as I should. I find it too fast to be enjoyable, sometimes so fast I wonder if the entire piece is being performed wrong, so I go back to the Eastern music sometimes. I feel that with classical the conductors need to be more diverse - if Beethoven's 9 Symphony was 5 hours I would not mind. I don't know but the Classical and Baroque composers confuse the heck out of me.

When I do listen to the pieces I mentioned above yes it does sound ugly - though the key thing is the perspective it is heard from. The opening chords of the 5th Piano Concerto are anything but beautiful (in the common tongue of the word) to my ears.

Beethoven is something of a complete mystery to me. I have had trouble hearing and understanding his music. I actually do better with Mozart. The Romantics and Renaissance are usually the era's that I get the best.

I wonder how you respond Preston to the more dissonant music of composers such as Bartok?

I have not listened to Bartok. Though, I will give him a try at some point and let you know. Do you have a particular piece you recommend Peter?

[Peter]

I think that is a very good argument, at least that does actually make sense to me. I see this now: when I do listen to the Romantic composers I do hear I guess one would more of a "singular type" of melody. Such as, Dvorak's 9th full of recognizable melodies to my ears. Yet the Classical era composers wrote differently, quite interesting. Beethoven and Mozart I am sure could write melody like the romantics though they didn't. There music is different. Peter why do you say Mozart was more of melodic composer and Beethoven more structural? I think I hear a more melodic side to Mozart's music, though it depends on the way melody was used at the given time, I guess.

Mozart is the more melodic composer because being naturally an operatic composer, he is always thinking of the voice. Beethoven was perfectly capable of writing a good tune and did so as the examples already mentioned demonstrate, but primarily like Haydn, he was concerned with structure and the development of his material. I certainly cannot agree with you about the opening chords of the Emperor concerto (which are simply the tonic and dominant common to all western music) or your ideas about tempo - this has more to do with your own approach to the music and if you cannot relate to it yet then don't try so hard! If you find more in the Renaissance and Romantic eras then explore them more and leave the classical and Baroque for now - there is nothing wrong in that. BTW generally Klemperer's tempi are slower than those of today and you may find his recordings of the classical era more to your taste.

My suggestion of Bartok will not suit you regarding speed as much is very very fast! However I was interested since you describe the opening chords of the Emperor as ugly what you made of say the first piano concerto of Bartok? Try it and let me know!

[Sorrano]

Preston, you might consider listening to the 2nd movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 20; for me this contains one of the most divine melodies ever written.

In regards to the Beethoven 5th Piano Concerto, I would not consider the opening chords as being "beautiful", either, but rather powerful, dynamic, and defiant, setting the stage for the theme that is to follow along with the "duel" between the piano and the orchestra.

[Peter]

Preston, you might consider listening to the 2nd movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 20; for me this contains one of the most divine melodies ever written.

In regards to the Beethoven 5th Piano Concerto, I would not consider the opening chords as being "beautiful", either, but rather powerful, dynamic, and defiant, setting the stage for the theme that is to follow along with the "duel" between the piano and the orchestra.

Yes powerful is the right word - 'beautiful' and serene describes the slow movement.

[Preston]

Yes powerful is the right word - 'beautiful' and serene describes the slow movement.

I believe that beautiful is a good word for the 2nd mov. It is 'beautiful'. When I think of it most of the 'beautiful' music (from my perspective) of Beethoven has a catchier side to it. Though, I may be wrong.

What are the chords of the opening chords of the 5th Piano Concerto? Also, I think the opening chords are glorious (in a very true sense of the word), though I do not hear this as I should.

[Preston]

I certainly cannot agree with you about the opening chords of the Emperor concerto (which are simply the tonic and dominant common to all western music) or your ideas about tempo - this has more to do with your own approach to the music and if you cannot relate to it yet then don't try so hard! If you find more in the Renaissance and Romantic eras then explore them more and leave the classical and Baroque for now - there is nothing wrong in that. BTW generally Klemperer's tempi are slower than those of today and you may find his recordings of the classical era more to your taste.

My suggestion of Bartok will not suit you regarding speed as much is very very fast! However I was interested since you describe the opening chords of the Emperor as ugly what you made of say the first piano concerto of Bartok? Try it and let me know!

Regarding the tempo, I have had too much trouble with the tempo of the Classical and Baroque Era. There are pieces I like, though, the tempo is so fast and the notes are so quick - I simply cannot enjoy it. (This was why I mentioned the music of Jeremy Soule - completely orchestral and good tempos for a lot of it.) Anyway, I have a lot, I mean a lot, of very diverse questions regarding the performances of today and the music itself? Though, while I have these questions I simply am having trouble answering them.

Regarding ugly, , when regarding certain things I find it interesting that the beautiful is embraced so easily and the word ugly is outcast and disgusting. Tchaikovsky considered what Mussorgsky loved ugly. Though, I do apologize for any offense regarding that post, .

Personally, I do imagine and hear to an extent an almost complete lack of beauty in Beethoven's music - down to the shortest of notes, his use of form I imagine is completely different in that it takes what was commonly structured form of the time and deforms it, etc. Though each piece is different.

There is much more I have to say but I just can't write anymore.

[Peter]

I suggest your problem with fast tempo could be down to not feeling the rhythmic pulse - for example the scherzo of Beethoven's 7th symphony should be felt as one in a bar, not 3. There are slow and fast tempi in most periods of music, so I'm not sure why you single out the Classical and Baroque - what about the scherzo to Dvorak's 9th symphony, the finale of Brahms' 2nd symphony, the last movement of Chopin's Bb minor sonata or a lot of John Williams' music in Star Wars?

Regarding lack of beauty in Beethoven's music - I think it depends on what you mean by beauty - if you mean a superficial prettiness pandering to popular taste, then no you won't find it in Beethoven, but you will find something far greater, a truthful reflection of a great mind and soul of the highest artistic integrity which is the greatest beauty of all. The first movement of the Moonlight sonata I would describe as 'hauntingly beautiful', the slow movement of the quartet Op.18 no.1 as 'achingly beautiful' and these are just two examples out of many in Beethoven's music - listen to some of the slow movements and you'll find plenty of beauty and don't suppose this makes those pieces inferior - Beethoven never resorts to superficiality or compromises his art.

The opening chords of the Emperor concerto are Eb, Ab, Bb - a perfectly standard chord progression that you'll find in any music from 18th-20th century - it isn't the chords themselves but the way Beethoven uses them that creates this powerful opening. The same is true of the Eroica symphony where he simply thumps out two chords of Eb.

[Preston]

I suggest your problem with fast tempo could be down to not feeling the rhythmic pulse - for example the scherzo of Beethoven's 7th symphony should be felt as one in a bar, not 3. There are slow and fast tempi in most periods of music, so I'm not sure why you single out the Classical and Baroque - what about the scherzo to Dvorak's 9th symphony, the finale of Brahms' 2nd symphony, the last movement of Chopin's Bb minor sonata or a lot of John Williams' music in Star Wars?

You are probably right about feeling the rhythmic pulse. I do not single it out as a whole, just a lot of the music from the Classical and Baroque I find to fast, though, I have wondered as you have mentioned if the problem lies in my lack of feeling for these era's. Though, what I like to feel I like slow. I have trouble understanding how much music of the great masters is played fast, sustained is good for feeling, so I get confused. I imagine things being sustained for hours, days, and so on, etc. because they are filled with such feeling and emotion - even a note - and it should not be let go and touched on in every way possible. It is nothing I feel, so to say, though it can be felt. Anyway, I have thought things like this for a long time and have too many questions that as of now I cannot answer, though maybe one day.

Regarding lack of beauty in Beethoven's music - I think it depends on what you mean by beauty - if you mean a superficial prettiness pandering to popular taste, then no you won't find it in Beethoven, but you will find something far greater, a truthful reflection of a great mind and soul of the highest artistic integrity which is the greatest beauty of all. The first movement of the Moonlight sonata I would describe as 'hauntingly beautiful', the slow movement of the quartet Op.18 no.1 as 'achingly beautiful' and these are just two examples out of many in Beethoven's music - listen to some of the slow movements and you'll find plenty of beauty and don't suppose this makes those pieces inferior - Beethoven never resorts to superficiality or compromises his art.

Yes, that is the type of "beauty" I was referring to. Though, I try to avoid saying the word beauty because of its broad acceptance of modern/high society. Though I know of the non-superficial beauty you speak of and yes that is there. I think the better word instead of ugly would have been unattractive.

The opening chords of the Emperor concerto are Eb, Ab, Bb - a perfectly standard chord progression that you'll find in any music from 18th-20th century - it isn't the chords themselves but the way Beethoven uses them that creates this powerful opening. The same is true of the Eroica symphony where he simply thumps out two chords of Eb.

Peter, exactly. This is why I asked. I thought it was an straight major chord, and this is the whole point he takes the straight major and with proper use of the orchestra makes it blatantly sound unattractive to my ears - fascinating, I think. The major can all to easily sound to "beautiful", but that opening chord of the 5th - that is some work of the orchestra, !

[Peter]

You are probably right about feeling the rhythmic pulse. I do not single it out as a whole, just a lot of the music from the Classical and Baroque I find to fast, though, I have wondered as you have mentioned if the problem lies in my lack of feeling for these era's. Though, what I like to feel I like slow. I have trouble understanding how much music of the great masters is played fast, sustained is good for feeling, so I get confused. I imagine things being sustained for hours, days, and so on, etc. because they are filled with such feeling and emotion - even a note - and it should not be let go and touched on in every way possible. It is nothing I feel, so to say, though it can be felt. Anyway, I have thought things like this for a long time and have too many questions that as of now I cannot answer, though maybe one day.

Yes, that is the type of "beauty" I was referring to. Though, I try to avoid saying the word beauty because of its broad acceptance of modern/high society. Though I know of the non-superficial beauty you speak of and yes that is there. I think the better word instead of ugly would have been unattractive.

Peter, exactly. This is why I asked. I thought it was an straight major chord, and this is the whole point he takes the straight major and with proper use of the orchestra makes it blatantly sound unattractive to my ears - fascinating, I think. The major can all to easily sound to "beautiful", but that opening chord of the 5th - that is some work of the orchestra, !

My suggestion for you regarding the classical and baroque is simply to listen to the slow movements for now - there are plenty of them! Another way of understanding tempi might be to listen to sets of variations where you can hear all sorts of things being done with the original theme - for baroque try Bach's Goldberg variations or Handel's harmonius blacksmith.