Beethoven and melody...

[Bonn1827]

Loved the joke about Supertonic! Well done. Interesting comments about Beethoven and melody. When I studied Musicology in the early 90's I was told that the rule of thumb was that classical music employed "motivic development", whereas post-Beethoven 19th century music involved "thematic transformation". These arbitrary labels do actually contain some truths and partly explains the "melody" issue with respect to Beethoven. Was interested to hear Manny Ax suggest that Schumann and Chopin wrote "formulaic" music compared to Beethoven, who was interested in structure and duration (I think this was the latter idea). It still doesn't answer this question for me: What IS it about Beethoven, above all others, that has endured and that we love so much? I would really appreciate some answers to that question before I compile my "bucket list".

[Michael]

Welcome to the forum, Bonn 1827. We still don't know what is it about Beethoven - and that's part of the attraction. Philip probably knows what it is about Beethoven as he knows everything.

[Bonn1827]

Looking at some of the earlier comments by Preston on the way he listens to music etc.. I read a great comment about music recently in a film magazine, of all things, which was discussing "The Soloist" (which I would recommend). The critic said, "music is the most intravenous of the art forms". I thought about that comment and realized how insightful it was: yes, music goes STRAIGHT to the head and heart! Then I listened to Richter playing Beethoven, Op. 109, in E major - the 3rd movement. The "rush" was instant. Incidentally, the Coen brothers used this, and other piano/chamber music of the master, in their film "The Man Who Wasn't There" to exquisite effect. The Coen's are living legends!!

[Preston]

Whilst I agree that Beethoven was capable of writing a fine melody and that there are many examples, I don't agree that he is most famous for it. Take the best known bits from the best known works such as the 5th symphony - that opening is hardly a melody nor is the Moonlight sonata particularly hummable.

I agree with you about him not being most famous for it, and, I do not think this is a bad thing. I think it is good and represents a strong musician.

Why would a musician of Beethoven's magnitude want to waste his time writing a lot of cathy melodies?

Also, I think the Moonlight sonata, particularly the 1st movement, as simple as it is- is a sublime movement. When I hear it I ask myself how is it possible for someone to keep the same patterns in the music yet change everything at the same time- well I ask myself somethng like that, . It seems to me that the 1st movement of the Moonlight is a masterwork. Though, I am probably wrong. The movement just seems to come from a human being who knew what the capabilities of writing music is?

[Michael]

Interesting little talk here on Beethoven and melody:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNi1_kGC9dg

[Bonn1770]

Loved the joke about Supertonic! Well done. Interesting comments about Beethoven and melody. When I studied Musicology in the early 90's I was told that the rule of thumb was that classical music employed "motivic development", whereas post-Beethoven 19th century music involved "thematic transformation". These arbitrary labels do actually contain some truths and partly explains the "melody" issue with respect to Beethoven. Was interested to hear Manny Ax suggest that Schumann and Chopin wrote "formulaic" music compared to Beethoven, who was interested in structure and duration (I think this was the latter idea). It still doesn't answer this question for me: What IS it about Beethoven, above all others, that has endured and that we love so much? I would really appreciate some answers to that question before I compile my "bucket list".

For a second there I thought someone had hijacked my account!

But shouldn't it be Vienna1827?

[Michael]

For a second there I thought someone had hijacked my account!

But shouldn't it be Vienna1827?

There's going to be a bit of confusion here between Bonn1770/1827. "Vienna 1827" might be a good idea?

[Bonn1827]

Confusion between Beethoven's birth and death dates?

Self-explanatory, besides I don't know how to alter my user name - it's the one I got when I signed on. I might know my way around a piano or a sound system, but not technology!

[Curiosity]

Truly I think it's silly the way some (Thomas Beecham being one I believe?) single out Beethoven in this regard. I don't believe Beethoven was any less melodic than the other masters of the classical style, Mozart and Haydn. When I listen to something like Mozart's Jupiter symphony, I don't hear much in terms of singable melodies.

[Preston]

Truly I think it's silly the way some (Thomas Beecham being one I believe?) single out Beethoven in this regard. I don't believe Beethoven was any less melodic than the other masters of the classical style, Mozart and Haydn. When I listen to something like Mozart's Jupiter symphony, I don't hear much in terms of singable melodies.

Please understand I know too little of all of this, though, this is what comes to my mind:

The melody that I think you speak of is only mostly, if not complete insanity, imo - it is like taking 12-tone deriving from all its beauty and understanding and creating a pop-melody. They are somewhat catchy if not wholly, and I enjoy a lot of them, but the truth behind them is insanity, imo. And Beethoven while perhaps insane outwardly and perhaps inwardly, his music was not, for the most part, unless he felt like writing about the insanity that sentient beings are capable of experiencing - including divine beings, because they are nonetheless sentient.

I imagine that Beethoven preferred not to use melody, because he did not like it - probably why he did not use the harp, and probably why Gould considered Beethoven's music ugly, and I agree - it is ugly music - though, to my mind, that is why it is so "beautiful".

To my mind, Mozart did write catchy (singular, you said so I say, ) melodies, though only some of the time. Though, as you say, it is not that catch like the melodies of today. Though, as Peter has said I do think Mozart was more of a melodic composer than Beethoven. Though, I know to little of these things. Though, listening to only the Jupiter is wrong it seems, because Mozart is a very diverse composer, even I pick up on that, . Listen to the 1st mov. of the 40th, I think that has much more of the type of melody you are talking about?

Could someone explain the difference between a classical structural form and melodic?

[Curiosity]

Interesting perspective on things. I've considered the "insanity" of melody and music making in general myself before, and all of the emotions that can be derived by specific combinations of notes, rhythms, dynamics. Beethoven was a master of the this, above all others to my mind. I wouldn't call Beethoven's music "ugly", even at it's most abrasive it's beautiful to my ears.

Of course both Mozart and Beethoven could write beautiful, catchy, lyrical melodies when they wished to - in Beethoven's case, think of the final movement of the Waldstein sonata, the "Ode to Joy" theme, the main theme of the fourth movement of the Eroica symphony... and many more. For Mozart, yes the first movement of the 40th is a good example. But there's so much more to music than just long lyrical melodies and both Beethoven and Mozart understood this. Nowadays in popular music we have melody being way overemphasised.

[Preston]

=Curiosity;52156I wouldn't call Beethoven's music "ugly", even at it's most abrasive it's beautiful to my ears.

What I hear when I listen to Beethoven is in the common tongue, "ugly" and quite, imo. In a world where vanity and sin reign I think we could some ugliness. I only understand Beethoven's music from my perspective, it sounds ugly and I like what I hear however little.

Imo, The Heileger Dankesang (I know I spelled that wrong) is what vanity considers "beautiful", though most Beethoven is not like that to my ears. It is raw, it is pure, it is glorious-strength, it is true to itself, etc.

[Preston]

I wanted to explain in more detail. When I listen to Beethoven, yes, I hear ugliness in all its glory. For instance, when I listen to the opening chords of the 5th Piano Concerto I hear ugliness (it is almost though as Beethoven made the major ugly for a large part), though when I listen to the opening chords 4th I hear beauty.

The same qualities of the opening of the 5th Piano Concerto applies to much of what I hear when I listen to Beethoven. Take the Overture to the Egmont - raw strength, hope through good, etc. but completely deformed from anything "beautiful". Or, the 3rd Piano Concerto (I bring this up because I listened to it recently), I love the 1st mov. because it is, well it is a lot of things, but while it has some beauty it is also deformed music. It is almost like Beethoven is saying this is what I think of structure.

Though, I may be completely wrong.

[Roehre]

Preston, how do you appreciate the 2nd mvt (Rondo) of the piano sonata opus 90?

[Chris]

Ah, one of the most beautiful melodies in music I think. I was tapping it out for my nephew earlier today.