Beethoven and melody...

[Sorrano]

Preston, continue to listen to music in the manner it best suits you. As you learn more about it and more about specific works your appreciation for the music will be enhanced. Sometimes the more learned musicians fail to appreciate a work because they are so focused on specific issues that they "miss the forest for the trees." Your desire to learn and to expand your own experiences says a lot about you. Just keep up the good work and continue to enjoy your music!

[Michael]

Ok, this is a hard thing to write about clearly, but, I tried to make sense of some of the things I mentioned in former posts. Hopefully, it makes some sense........

.

It makes a lot of sense and is extremely well put. It's very hard to describe one's personal response to music, and I know exactly what you're writing about.

[Preston]

Thank you all for the helpful comments.

[Sorrano]

There are also many books on theory and harmony that can be helpful, too.

[Bonn1770]

I'm not clear on why some people are so eager to underrate Beethoven's ability to come up with great melodies. In fact, this is something that Lewis Lockwood mentions several times in his biography of LvB. Say what you will about Beethoven's concern for structure and development, but the man's melodic talent shines through in most of his works and is in fact the most important factor contributing to his popularity. He had as much of a talent for lyrical melodies as Schubert and Dvorak if not more so.

[PDG]

I'm not clear on why some people are so eager to underrate Beethoven's ability to come up with great melodies. In fact, this is something that Lewis Lockwood mentions several times in his biography of LvB. Say what you will about Beethoven's concern for structure and development, but the man's melodic talent shines through in most of his works and is in fact the most important factor contributing to his popularity. He had as much of a talent for lyrical melodies as Schubert and Dvorak if not more so.

I agree with much of this. Many LvB works have wonderful melodic lines which don't reveal themselves straight away; you have to work at listening to them. Which is a good thing! But he could also produce amazing 'pot boilers': The finale of the A minor quartet, Op.132; the first movement of Symphony #8; the piano variations, Op.34; and many, many more.

I sometimes wonder what he could have written had he not had such an ingrained, solid grounding in Classical techniques. Maybe the Choral Fantasia (Op.80) gives us a glimpse, and of course his later quartet writing was very daring but I don't think he ever truly 'let himself go', creatively speaking. He wasn't capable, it would seem. And probably just as well...

[Peter]

I sometimes wonder what he could have written had he not had such an ingrained, solid grounding in Classical techniques. Maybe the Choral Fantasia (Op.80) gives us a glimpse, and of course his later quartet writing was very daring but I don't think he ever truly 'let himself go', creatively speaking. He wasn't capable, it would seem. And probably just as well...

I'm not quite sure what you mean about not being capable of 'letting himself go' - he was most famous in his early years for doing just that in his improvisations. The nearest we have actually to this type of work is the Fantasia Op.77.

[Peter]

I'm not clear on why some people are so eager to underrate Beethoven's ability to come up with great melodies. In fact, this is something that Lewis Lockwood mentions several times in his biography of LvB. Say what you will about Beethoven's concern for structure and development, but the man's melodic talent shines through in most of his works and is in fact the most important factor contributing to his popularity. He had as much of a talent for lyrical melodies as Schubert and Dvorak if not more so.

Whilst I agree that Beethoven was capable of writing a fine melody and that there are many examples, I don't agree that he is most famous for it. Take the best known bits from the best known works such as the 5th symphony - that opening is hardly a melody nor is the Moonlight sonata particularly hummable.

[Michael]

I agree with much of this. Many LvB works have wonderful melodic lines which don't reveal themselves straight away; you have to work at listening to them. Which is a good thing! But he could also produce amazing 'pot boilers': The finale of the A minor quartet, Op.132; the first movement of Symphony #8; the piano variations, Op.34; and many, many more.

...

PDG, you've picked some strange examples! Those three pieces would be very high on my list. Symphony #8 has suffered a lot from being sandwiched between the 7th and 9th but it's bloody marvellous. The A minor finale has a gorgeous Brahms-like waltz and Opus 34 must be one of the most beautiful and melodic of all his sets of variations.
I don't know how you could cat-egorise them as "pot boilers"!

[PDG]

I'm not quite sure what you mean about not being capable of 'letting himself go' - he was most famous in his early years for doing just that in his improvisations. The nearest we have actually to this type of work is the Fantasia Op.77.

I think the early improvisations were mostly spontaneous, brilliant episodes of showmanship. I was thinking more in terms of fully thought out compositions, although yes, the Fantasia, Op.77 does show him to be straining at the leash!

[PDG]

For me there is an ever better example : the Diabelli Variations.

Very good example although of course he was constrained even here by variation form on a banal theme, despite bending it to near-superhuman limits...

[PDG]

PDG, you've picked some strange examples! Those three pieces would be very high on my list. Symphony #8 has suffered a lot from being sandwiched between the 7th and 9th but it's bloody marvellous. The A minor finale has a gorgeous Brahms-like waltz and Opus 34 must be one of the most beautiful and melodic of all his sets of variations.
I don't know how you could cat-egorise them as "pot boilers"!

Michael, those pieces are all Premier League in my book, too! I was meaning that the stripped down single-note melodies of any of them are simply fantastic and do indicate LvB's prowess as a tuneful composer. In this sense they are great 'pot boilers' (not a slur, in my opinion). And yet, of course, they are far more than just great tunes - they are magnificent movements which excel on so many levels of composition. I was trying to say that beneath and among the multi-layered magic, there also lies great, highly original tunes.

I would seem to have set the cat among the pigeons on this thread....

[Michael]

Michael, those pieces are all Premier League in my book, too! I was meaning that the stripped down single-note melodies of any of them are simply fantastic and do indicate LvB's prowess as a tuneful composer. In this sense they are great 'pot boilers' (not a slur, in my opinion). And yet, of course, they are far more than just great tunes - they are magnificent movements which excel on so many levels of composition. I was trying to say that beneath and among the multi-layered magic, there also lies great, highly original tunes.

I would seem to have set the cat among the pigeons on this thread....

I'm very relieved! It's just the phrase "pot boiler" that had me worried. It usually means substandard work, composed for money and doesn't
indi-cat-e the melodic power or depth of feline in those works.
(Sorry about the cat jokes - just kitten.)

[Sorrano]

I would seem to have set the cat among the pigeons on this thread....

That's better than setting the pigeons among the statues....

[PDG]

That's better than setting the pigeons among the statues....

Always a messy business.....