Beethoven and melody...

[Euan Mackinnon]

Well I'll be brief. Lyrical is basically consisting of a vocal quality - singable. Melody has this lyrical element and is usually extended over several bars and phrases e.g. Schubert Trout quintet 4th movt. Motiff is generally shorter and the rhythmic component is of more importance than the lyrical, e.g Beethoven Op.18/1 first movt.

Thank you Peter, simple and very clear.

Euan

[Michael]

Thank you Peter, simple and very clear.

Euan

Too clear. I understood every word.

[Sorrano]

Dissonance is relevant, as well. What might be dissonant in a Haydn piece would be consonant and sound that way to the average ears in a Bartok piece.

[Peter]

Well, Herr von Bechstein, as I have tried to explain above, I admire synthetic ability as does the next man, but fear over-simplification. As to allergies to compliments directed to your luminescence, I don't hold with "toadying up" to the "top management", if you get my drift!

Nah, I'm just jealous. No, not that, I was simply peeling an onion as I read your disciples' praising comments and couldn't help weeping.

You make the fatal error of forgetting your audience. Preston who asks many of these questions is not a 3rd year harmony student at a conservatoire, but someone with little musical background who is making a really noble effort to learn - it is of no use to him talking about 2nd inversion dominants and flattened supertonic sevenths!

[Megan]

Looks like Philip could use some Supertonic,



Cleans the valves for excellent performance and maintains regular movements.

[Michael]

Looks like Philip could use some Supertonic,

Or even a diet tonic.

[Preston]

Not so, I'm afraid. The C-sharp Preston refers too (and clearly hears) is played against a G in the violins - i.e. a tritone, ergo, in WAM practice, considered a dissonant interval. The passage Preston is referring to (bars 7-11) contains some delicious harmonic continued dissonances with delayed resolution, thus (vertically) : C-sharp/B-flat/G/G moves to D/B-flat/G/G moves to D/B-flat/F/A-flat moves to E-flat/B-flat/F/A-flat resolves quickly to E-flat/B-flat/E-flat/G, and hence on to the "classic" cadential approach IIb7-VIb7-IVb-V-I. Preston hears rightly the dissonance, but it is harmonic and not melodic.

For Michael's pleasure, the passage just quoted also shows Beethoven's mastery at avoiding parallel fifths, but Lord, he gets close, oh so close ....

What I was wondering is why Beethoven always used such a strong "dissonance" (guess that is the right word). For instance he starts the Eroica off with what would seem like an E-flat major scale, sounds like one and everything. Then he goes to D, after the first eight notes, which is still on the E-flat major scale. Then he goes to C# throwing off the chance of an E-flat major scale completely. It sounds like dissonance to my ears.

I hear this all the time with Beethoven. So my thought was I am trying to listen too Beethoven to catchy, so to say, when his music is not.

It seems that Beethoven may have found peace in the C# of the Eroica theme, or, the A-minor in the Piano Concerto 4. So I think that Beethoven using notes and chords like the C# and the A-minor was part of his writing style.

So, is it possible for there to be peace in a minor and major? Hope this makes some sense.

[Preston]

but someone with little musical background who is making a really noble effort to learn

Appreciate that Peter. My ancestors and family have never really been a musical family. And the thing is certain music, particularly Beethoven, means a lot to me, so I want to understand it to the best I can.

[Megan]

Philip, I am glad to see you took the jesting in good humour, I just couldn't resist being wicked.
You're a good sport really.

[Peter]

What I was wondering is why Beethoven always used such a strong "dissonance" (guess that is the right word). For instance he starts the Eroica off with what would seem like an E-flat major scale, sounds like one and everything. Then he goes to D, after the first eight notes, which is still on the E-flat major scale. Then he goes to C# throwing off the chance of an E-flat major scale completely. It sounds like dissonance to my ears.

I hear this all the time with Beethoven. So my thought was I am trying to listen too Beethoven to catchy, so to say, when his music is not.

It seems that Beethoven may have found peace in the C# of the Eroica theme, or, the A-minor in the Piano Concerto 4. So I think that Beethoven using notes and chords like the C# and the A-minor was part of his writing style.

So, is it possible for there to be peace in a minor and major? Hope this makes some sense.

I think you're missing the point here Preston - it has nothing to do with peace, but everything to do with originality. Any mediocre composer could come up with the Eroica theme - it is simply an arpeggio of Eb major - it takes a genius to introduce that c#. No Beethoven's music is not 'catchy' - he wasn't a tune smith, but a first rate composer which is why we bother talking about him 200 years on!

[Preston]

Please excuse my previous point- it makes little sense.

[Peter]

Please excuse my previous point- it makes little sense.

Nothing to excuse Preston - what is interesting is that you instinctively focus on the unusual elements in Beethoven's music which make him stand out from the hundreds of other now forgotten contemporaries.

[Sorrano]

I'm such a lame duck; I just got this one.

Looks like Philip could use some Supertonic,



Cleans the valves for excellent performance and maintains regular movements.

[Preston]

Ok, this is a hard thing to write about clearly, but, I tried to make sense of some of the things I mentioned in former posts. Hopefully, it makes some sense.

Yes, Beethoven is not a writer of catchy music, even in the slightest way. My problem was that I have been listening to classical in the wrong way. I knew throughout these years that I was hearing it wrong, yet, I kept on listening- which I am glad for. Yet, it was like, take Beethoven as an example, my mind was turning the music into what it wanted to- which was some form of catchiness. I would keep telling myself this is anything but what Beethoven wrote or how it is meant to be heard, but, I would keep on listening. Hoping that I would one day understand, which, I still hope. The mind works in strange and interesting ways. It is full of complexity.

I know that Beethoven uses many different musical techniques- none of which I could really understand. I would just feel the music that I could, even though I knew what I was feeling, was wrong. I didn't underestimate the masters of music genius- I just didn't understand it.

As far as the peace issue- peace is too general of a word to use. I used the word peace to describe any form of pleasantness- whether it be nature, life, the divine, etc. I do believe that music is an expression of feeling, and, I do not believe that Beethoven wanted to write so many pieces of music that would sound pleasant and then make a drastic change such as the C# in the Eroica. There are numerous examples of Beethoven using changes, like the C#, in his music.

Take the 1st movement of his Cello Sonata Op. 102 #1. It would, seem, to start off so beautifully. Then after a couple of minutes the cello and piano, out of nowhere it would seem, start playing in the minor at a strong fortissimo- which I feel Beethoven may have heard something that could be considered pleasant, and, not a darker tone.

When I said that I wasn't looking at Beethoven serious enough, I meant, that I was hearing his music catchy, which, I knew I shouldn't have been. It was like a moment where I understood that the C# or the Op. 102 #1 was part of his writing style, and, that it was not meant to be harsh. It seems that a lot of people would say that Beethoven would use those dissonant changes to present darker themes or personal suffering. I disagree with this.

No, I am not saying that all music should be pleasant, by any means. Yes, I believe that when a composer wants to write of darker things that they should, such as the 1st movement of the 5th symphony.

I believe I have read that some say that the Grosse Fugue is about Beethoven's suffering, while, others say that it is a work of beauty. I could see the latter being the case. It is just getting my ears to be able to hear and understand the feelings he was expressing.

So, I guess in short, that it was like I was hearing only major and minor, so to say. Which is the last way to hear classical music.

[Peter]

Ok, this is a hard thing to write about clearly, but, I tried to make sense of some of the things I mentioned in former posts. Hopefully, it makes some sense.

Yes, Beethoven is not a writer of catchy music, even in the slightest way. My problem was that I have been listening to classical in the wrong way. I knew throughout these years that I was hearing it wrong, yet, I kept on listening- which I am glad for. Yet, it was like, take Beethoven as an example, my mind was turning the music into what it wanted to- which was some form of catchiness. I would keep telling myself this is anything but what Beethoven wrote or how it is meant to be heard, but, I would keep on listening. Hoping that I would one day understand, which, I still hope. The mind works in strange and interesting ways. It is full of complexity.

I know that Beethoven uses many different musical techniques- none of which I could really understand. I would just feel the music that I could, even though I knew what I was feeling, was wrong. I didn't underestimate the masters of music genius- I just didn't understand it.

As far as the peace issue- peace is too general of a word to use. I used the word peace to describe any form of pleasantness- whether it be nature, life, the divine, etc. I do believe that music is an expression of feeling, and, I do not believe that Beethoven wanted to write so many pieces of music that would sound pleasant and then make a drastic change such as the C# in the Eroica. There are numerous examples of Beethoven using changes, like the C#, in his music.

Take the 1st movement of his Cello Sonata Op. 102 #1. It would, seem, to start off so beautifully. Then after a couple of minutes the cello and piano, out of nowhere it would seem, start playing in the minor at a strong fortissimo- which I feel Beethoven may have heard something that could be considered pleasant, and, not a darker tone.

When I said that I wasn't looking at Beethoven serious enough, I meant, that I was hearing his music catchy, which, I knew I shouldn't have been. It was like a moment where I understood that the C# or the Op. 102 #1 was part of his writing style, and, that it was not meant to be harsh. It seems that a lot of people would say that Beethoven would use those dissonant changes to present darker themes or personal suffering. I disagree with this.

No, I am not saying that all music should be pleasant, by any means. Yes, I believe that when a composer wants to write of darker things that they should, such as the 1st movement of the 5th symphony.

I believe I have read that some say that the Grosse Fugue is about Beethoven's suffering, while, others say that it is a work of beauty. I could see the latter being the case. It is just getting my ears to be able to hear and understand the feelings he was expressing.

So, I guess in short, that it was like I was hearing only major and minor, so to say. Which is the last way to hear classical music.

I don't think it's necessary Preston to be a musician or to have a thorough knowledge of composition techniques in order to appreciate music. I think you have instinctively responded to the greatness of Beethoven's music and shouldn't worry too much about whether or not you are 'hearing it right' - there isn't a 'right' way to hear it, we all respond in different ways.
Yes it's natural to want to discover more about the music and how Beethoven achieved it but don't get bogged down with analysing it so much because I think that is a sure way of killing off all enjoyment and that natural response which you possess.

Don't forget the terms you use such a 'pleasant' and 'harsh' are all relative anyway - one man's heaven is another's hell!!